🟩 The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

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🟩 The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

This week we will be reading Chapter Two of the Book of Twos of the Itivuttaka. A somewhat less favored text of the KN, the discourses of the Iti are pure, cut-and-dry doctrine, where setting and context are in short supply. Each sutta is summarized in verse, however, providing balance to the lack of narrative depth in the prose.

Additional context (and perhaps a dash of wonderment) for these 112 short discourses can be found in the backstory of this collection. Typically we have a discourse begin with Evaṁ me sutaṁ (Thus have I heard) believed to have been the words of Ānanda, the Buddha's personal attendant, but here in the Iti they begin with Vuttañhetaṁ bhagavatā vuttamarahatāti me sutaṁ (This was said by the Lord, by the Arahant, so I have heard), which are believed to be the words of the lay woman, Khujjuttarā. According to the commentaries, she was a servant to the consort of King Udena, and would regularly listen to the Buddha speak during time spent in Kosambī. She would then share what she heard with the other women of the palace, converting many of them to the Buddha's path. (We find Khujjuttarā mentioned in five suttas, most notably AN 2.133, SN 17.24, and AN 4.176 where she, along with Veḷukaṇṭakī, Nanda’s mother, are described as a standard and a measure for female disciples, and to whom lay women should rightly aspire to be like; and in AN 1.260 where she is described as the foremost of lay women who are very learned.)

As for the translator, I think he deserves a special mention as well. I've seen this biography in several places and was able to trace it back to the website Dharma Audiobooks:
  • John D. Ireland (1932-1998) was born in North London, England. He became a Buddhist at age eighteen and soon began studying Pali. From the 1960’s onward he was a frequent contributor to the Buddhist Publication Society’s Wheel and Bodhi Leaves series of booklets. But he is perhaps best known for his combined translation, The Udana & the Itivuttaka (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1997), in reference to which he wrote to a friend shortly before his death: “I feel I could die contented in the knowledge that I have done something to repay the great happiness the Buddha-Dhamma has brought me in this life.”
Just based on his introductions to the Udāna and Itivuttaka alone, we see the mark of a careful and considerate translator willing to clearly share as many details as he could gather with the reader.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

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:reading:

Khuddaka Nikāya (KN)
Itivuttaka (Iti) “So It Was Said”
Dukanipāta (Book of Twos)
Dutiyavagga (Chapter 2)
Translated by John D. Ireland




Vitakkasutta (Often Occurring Thoughts) Iti 38 (PTS Iti 32-33)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Bhikkhus, two thoughts often occur to the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One: the thought of security (for beings) and the thought of solitude.

    “The Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is one who delights in and enjoys non-ill will. As the Tathāgata delights in and enjoys non-ill will, this thought often occurs to him: ‘By this behaviour I do not oppress anyone either frail or firm.’The Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is one who delights in and enjoys solitude. As the Tathāgata delights in and enjoys solitude, this thought often occurs to him: ‘What is unwholesome has been abandoned.’

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, I say, you too must live delighting in and enjoying non-ill will. As you so live this thought will often occur to you: ‘By this behaviour we do not oppress anyone either frail or firm.’

    “Bhikkhus, you too must live delighting in and enjoying solitude. As you so live this thought will often occur to you: ‘What is unwholesome? What has not been abandoned? What have we abandoned?’”

    Two thoughts occur to him,
    The Tathāgata, the Awakened One
    Who endured what is beyond endurance:
    Security (for beings) was the first thought spoken of,
    Solitude was the second announced.

    The dispeller of darkness, gone beyond,
    The great sage who has reached attainment,
    Become a master, freed from taints,
    Who has crossed over entirely,
    Released by the destruction of craving—
    That sage bears his final body,
    And having left behind Māra, I say,
    He has gone beyond decay.

    As one standing on a mountain peak
    Might see all round the people down below,
    So having ascended the Dhamma-palace,
    The vastly wise one, all-seeing,
    Views the people of the world.
    The sorrowless one views below
    Those still immersed in sorrow,
    Overwhelmed by birth and decay.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Desanāsutta (Dhamma-Teachings) Iti 39 (PTS Iti 34)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “There are, bhikkhus, two successive Dhamma-teachings of the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. What are the two? ‘See evil as evil’— this is the first Dhamma-teaching. ‘Having seen evil as evil, be rid of it, be detached from it, be freed from it’—this is the second Dhamma-teaching. These, bhikkhus, are the two successive Dhamma-teachings of the Tathāgata…”

    Regard the ordered words he spoke,
    The Tathāgata, the Awakened One,
    Compassionate for all beings,
    And the two things he proclaimed:

    “See what is evil” is one,
    The other “Be detached from it.”
    With a mind become detached from evil
    You will make an end of suffering.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Vijjāsutta (Knowledge) Iti 40 (PTS Iti 35)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Ignorance, bhikkhus, precedes and leads to unwholesome states, and shamelessness and lack of fear of wrongdoing follow after. Knowledge, bhikkhus, precedes and leads to wholesome states, and shame and fear of wrongdoing follow after.”

    Whatever bad bourns there are
    In this world and hereafter,
    All are rooted in ignorance,
    Constructed by desire and greed.

    Since one of evil desires
    Is shameless and disrespectful,
    From that evil flows forth
    And he goes to a state of misery.

    Thus by discarding desire and greed,
    Along with ignorance as well,
    A bhikkhu arouses knowledge
    And abandons all bad bourns.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Paññāparihīnasutta (Deprived of Wisdom) Iti 41 (PTS Iti 36)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Bhikkhus, those beings are thoroughly deprived who are deprived of noble wisdom. They live in discomfort even here and now, with vexation, trouble, and distress, and when the body perishes at death a bad bourn is to be expected.

    “Those beings are not deprived who are not deprived of noble wisdom. They live in comfort here and now, without vexation, trouble, or distress, and when the body perishes at death a good bourn is to be expected.”

    See the world with its devas,
    Destitute of wisdom,
    Established in name-and-form,
    Conceiving this to be the truth.

    Wisdom which leads to penetration
    Is the best thing in the world;
    By this one completely understands
    The ending of both birth and being.

    Devas and human beings hold dear
    Those awakened ones ever mindful,
    Possessing joyous wisdom,
    Bearing their final bodies.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Sukkadhammasutta (The Brightest Protector) Iti 42 (PTS Iti 37)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle’s wife or a teacher’s wife or the wives of other honoured persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother … and the wives of other honoured persons.”

    Those in whom shame and fear of wrong
    Are not consistently found
    Have deviated from the bright root
    And are led back to birth and death.

    But those in whom shame and fear of wrong
    Are consistently ever present,
    Peaceful, mature in the holy life,
    They put an end to renewal of being.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Ajātasutta (The Not-Born) Iti 43 (PTS Iti 38)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.”

    The born, come-to-be, produced,
    The made, the conditioned, the transient,
    Conjoined with decay and death,
    A nest of disease, perishable,
    Sprung from nutriment and craving’s cord—
    That is not fit to take delight in.

    The escape from that, the peaceful,
    Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
    The not-born, the unproduced,
    The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
    The cessation of states linked to suffering,
    The stilling of the conditioned—bliss.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.


Nibbānadhātusutta (The Nibbāna-Element) Iti 44 (PTS Iti 39)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

    “What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

    “Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

    “These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbāna-elements.”

    These two Nibbāna-elements were made known
    By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
    One is the element seen here and now
    With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
    The other, having no residue for the future,
    Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

    Having understood the unconditioned state,
    Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
    They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
    Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
    Those stable ones have abandoned all being.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard


Paṭisallānasutta (Living in Seclusion) Iti 45 (PTS Iti 40)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Live enjoying seclusion, bhikkhus; live delighting in seclusion, engage in practising inner mental tranquillity, not neglecting meditation, possessing insight, and frequenting empty places. If you live enjoying seclusion, bhikkhus, … and frequenting empty places, one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”

    Those of peaceful mind, discerning,
    Mindful, given to meditation,
    Clearly see things rightly
    And long not for sensual pleasures.

    Those peaceful ones, delighting in diligence,
    Who see fear in negligence,
    Are incapable of falling away
    And are close to Nibbāna.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard


Sikkhānisaṁsasutta (The Benefits of the Training) Iti 46 (PTS Iti 41)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, live so as to realize the benefits of the training, the attainment of higher wisdom, the essence of release, and the control of mindfulness. Bhikkhus, if you live to realize the benefits of the training … one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”

    One who has completed the training,
    Incapable of falling away,
    Attained to the higher wisdom,
    A seer of the end of birth—
    That sage bears his final body,
    And having left behind conceit,
    He has gone beyond decay, I say.

    Therefore ever delighting in meditation,
    Concentrated, with ardent energy,
    Seeing the end of birth, O bhikkhus,
    Conquer Māra and his host,
    And go beyond all birth and death.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard


Jāgariyasutta (Vigilant) Iti 47 (PTS Iti 42)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu should be vigilant; he should live mindful, clearly comprehending, concentrated, happy and calm, and should know when it is suitable to cultivate those things that are wholesome. Bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu who is vigilant and living thus, one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”

    You vigilant ones hear this:
    Wake up, you who are asleep!
    Vigilance is better than sleep:
    There is no fear for the vigilant.

    One who is vigilant and mindful,
    Comprehending and concentrated,
    Joyful and calm in his thoughts,
    By rightly investigating the Dhamma
    With unified mind, will in time
    Destroy the darkness of ignorance.

    Therefore be devoted to vigilance,
    An ardent, discerning, meditative bhikkhu.
    Having severed the fetter of birth and decay,
    One may here and now attain
    Enlightenment which is supreme.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard


Āpāyikasutta (State of Misery) Iti 48 (PTS Iti 43)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, these two will go to a state of misery, to hell, by not giving up such conduct as this. What two? One who while no liver of the holy life pretends to be one who lives the holy life, and one who falsely accuses another who lives the holy life in complete purity of not living it. These two will go to a state of misery, to hell, by not giving up such conduct as this.”

    The false-accuser goes to hell
    And also one who denies the deed he did;
    Both these become equal hereafter,
    Persons of base actions in the world beyond.

    Many imposters wear the yellow robe
    Though evil-natured and uncontrolled.
    Because of their evil deeds,
    Those evil ones are born in hell.

    Far better for him to swallow
    A fiery hot iron ball
    Than that immoral and uncontrolled
    He should eat the country’s alms.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard


Diṭṭhigatasutta (Held by Views) Iti 49 (PTS Iti 44-45)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and
    human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.

    “And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

    “How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

    “How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practises the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see.”

    Having seen what has come to be
    As having come to be,
    Passing beyond what has come to be,
    They are released in accordance with truth
    By exhausting the craving for being.

    When a bhikkhu has fully understood
    That which has come to be as such,
    Free from craving to be this or that,
    By the extinction of what has come to be
    He comes no more to renewal of being.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard
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📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?
  • Iti 38: Interesting the description is that one "must" delight in non-ill will and solitude. Almost comforting that there are things that can be embraced that don't necessarily imply craving.
  • Iti 39: The term for evil is pāpa. I wonder what the relationship is to akusala (I just assume it is the broader of the two terms).
  • Iti 40: I've been fascinated lately with descriptions of ignorance as a root, which would be the quality that endures even as the determinants of it come and go.
  • Iti 41: Anyone want to take a stab at "established in name and form"?
  • Iti 42: I always enjoy and reference to hirī (shame) and ottappa (fear of wrongdoing), here described as the bright protectors.
  • Iti 43: "there is the not-born" (atthi ajātaṁ) is fascinating - it is an explicit description of present absence: there is that which is not born. See MN 140: "Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?"
  • Iti 44: A well-known sutta that needs no priming from me. :smile:
  • Iti 45: Some more on seclusion.
  • Iti 46: From the verse portion, “A seer of the end of birth—
    That sage bears his final body…” Compare with Iti 43.
  • Iti 47: "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu should be vigilant; he should live mindful, clearly comprehending, concentrated, happy and calm, and should know when it is suitable to cultivate those things that are wholesome." Any thoughts on knowing when it is suitable to cultivate wholesome? I recall a few the from the Theragatha - I'll look for those during the week.
  • Iti 48: Having already discussed a fear of wrongdoing, how cautious should we be when criticizing monastics if something seemingly so subtle is said to lead to a state of misery?
  • Iti 49: In terms of the overreach: would it be fair to say that such a person is craving a bliss similar to nibbana but doesn't want to do any work to gain it? And just hope that death will bring it? Seems like a real bad investment!
Looking forward to this week's discussion. :smile:
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by Mr Albatross »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:38 am Iti 47: "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu should be vigilant; he should live mindful, clearly comprehending, concentrated, happy and calm, and should know when it is suitable to cultivate those things that are wholesome." Any thoughts on knowing when it is suitable to cultivate wholesome?
Most of your questions are too difficult for me, but this is an easy one, for we find it answered in other suttas about jagariya, "vigilance" or "wakefulness", e.g., SN 35.120.

The answer is that all one's waking hours are a suitable time, while one's sleeping hours are unsuitable.
“And how, friend, is one devoted to wakefulness? Here, during the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, a bhikkhu purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night he lies down on his right side in the lion’s posture with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. It is in this way, friend, that one is devoted to wakefulness.
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Mr Albatross wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:27 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:38 am Iti 47: "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu should be vigilant; he should live mindful, clearly comprehending, concentrated, happy and calm, and should know when it is suitable to cultivate those things that are wholesome." Any thoughts on knowing when it is suitable to cultivate wholesome?
Most of your questions are too difficult for me, but this is an easy one, for we find it answered in other suttas about jagariya, "vigilance" or "wakefulness", e.g., SN 35.120.

The answer is that all one's waking hours are a suitable time, while one's sleeping hours are unsuitable.
“And how, friend, is one devoted to wakefulness? Here, during the day, while walking back and forth and sitting, a bhikkhu purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the first watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. In the middle watch of the night he lies down on his right side in the lion’s posture with one foot overlapping the other, mindful and clearly comprehending, after noting in his mind the idea of rising. After rising, in the last watch of the night, while walking back and forth and sitting, he purifies his mind of obstructive states. It is in this way, friend, that one is devoted to wakefulness.
Good find!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am Vitakkasutta (Often Occurring Thoughts) Iti 38 (PTS Iti 32-33)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Bhikkhus, two thoughts often occur to the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One: the thought of security (for beings) and the thought of solitude.

    “The Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is one who delights in and enjoys non-ill will. As the Tathāgata delights in and enjoys non-ill will, this thought often occurs to him: ‘By this behaviour I do not oppress anyone either frail or firm.’The Tathāgata, bhikkhus, is one who delights in and enjoys solitude. As the Tathāgata delights in and enjoys solitude, this thought often occurs to him: ‘What is unwholesome has been abandoned.’
Focusing on the exposition of the teaching, I often find myself making brief causal diagrams.
So, what is presented are two separate causal sequences related to security (for beings) and to solitude -- and these two stand in different positions in their respective causal sequences: one as a cause and one as a result.
Security of beings is the result of non-ill will. Solitude is the cause of knowledge of one's relationship to the unwholesome.

The teaching could have been introduced as being about security and about knowledge of one's relationship to the unwholesome -- and then we are presented with the causes for each. Similarly, the teaching could have been presented as being about non-ill will and about solitude -- and then we are presented with the results of each. Of course, as long as one gets the points, I suppose it doesn't really matter -- I just can't help noticing things like this, especially when I try to diagram the teachings.

Two related questions:
Is there some reason it was presented as it was (with one as cause and one as result)?
Is there a causal relationship between the two sequences? -- something not addressed in this teaching.

Taking a shot at the second question: Ill-will is certainly unwholesome so there is a connect point. Solitude can make apparent whether or not one has abandoned ill will. It can also make apparent the dukkha associated with that ill will. Solitude can also facilitate the development of non-ill will and hence greater security of beings. So, in this way, the solitude sequence can causally precede the safety sequence.
However, non-ill will (with its non-remorse and non-agitation) supports the effectiveness of solitude in producing clarity (including knowledge of one's relationship to the unwholesome). So in this case, the security sequence can be seen to precede the solitude sequence.
So, perhaps it is not either/or -- it's richer than that.

Yeah, I may be getting too academic, but it is called a study group -- and it is better than getting this involved in something less wholesome.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am Desanāsutta (Dhamma-Teachings) Iti 39 (PTS Iti 34)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “There are, bhikkhus, two successive Dhamma-teachings of the Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. What are the two? ‘See evil as evil’— this is the first Dhamma-teaching. ‘Having seen evil as evil, be rid of it, be detached from it, be freed from it’—this is the second Dhamma-teaching. These, bhikkhus, are the two successive Dhamma-teachings of the Tathāgata…”

    Regard the ordered words he spoke,
    The Tathāgata, the Awakened One,
    Compassionate for all beings,
    And the two things he proclaimed:

    “See what is evil” is one,
    The other “Be detached from it.”
    With a mind become detached from evil
    You will make an end of suffering.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.
I thought it might be interesting to continue along with the cause/result approach.
This sutta, like the previous one, delivers a concise causal statement:
Seeing evil as evil precedes detachment and freedom from it; apparently a necessary cause.
While there is here no specified cause or precondition for seeing evil as evil, the verse portion does add another element to the causal chain: detachment from evil will end suffering.

see evil as evil ---> detach from evil ---> end suffering

While there is here no specified precondition for seeing evil as evil, it is certainly not a simple task (as ignorance prevails) -- it brings to mind the simile of the leper who delights in burning himself. I suppose it could be said that following the path factors is the precondition for this seeing, hearing the true Dhamma, having noble friends, coming to know dukkha -- things described elsewhere as causes/conditions/tasks leading to progress.

So it seems that the Buddha chooses in specific teachings to highlight certain elements in the causal chain leading to the end of suffering -- presumably addressing the needs at hand.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am Vijjāsutta (Knowledge) Iti 40 (PTS Iti 35)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Ignorance, bhikkhus, precedes and leads to unwholesome states, and shamelessness and lack of fear of wrongdoing follow after. Knowledge, bhikkhus, precedes and leads to wholesome states, and shame and fear of wrongdoing follow after.”

    Whatever bad bourns there are
    In this world and hereafter,
    All are rooted in ignorance,
    Constructed by desire and greed.

    Since one of evil desires
    Is shameless and disrespectful,
    From that evil flows forth
    And he goes to a state of misery.

    Thus by discarding desire and greed,
    Along with ignorance as well,
    A bhikkhu arouses knowledge
    And abandons all bad bourns.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.
Another sutta with extremely concise causal statements -- almost as concise as a diagram!

Ignorance ---> unwholesome states ---> shamelessness & lack of fear of wrongdoing.
Knowledge ---> wholesome states ---> shame and fear of wrongdoing.
(Making the alternative causal process explicit feels very sutta-familiar.)

As in the previous sutta,the verse section adds a further consequence: bad bourns.
It seems an intervening element between shamelessness and "bad bourns" would be intentional wrongdoing (probably too obvious to make explicit!).
The verse does gets specific about unwholesome states mentioning "desire and greed" (but not ill-will).
As with the previous sutta, that which leads to knowledge is not addressed (in the prose section at least).
The verse interestingly says: "...by discarding desire and greed, Along wit ignorance...A bhikkhu arouses knowledge."
This is interesting because it reverses the original relationship between knowledge/ignorance and states -- the original placing knowledge/ignorance as causally prior to states -- the verse suggesting it can also work the other way. (But why would one discard unwholesome states w/o some knowledge?)

Diagram edit based on verse and obviously implicit:
Ignorance--->unwholesome states--->shamelessness & lack of fear of wrongdoing--->wrongdoing--->bad bourn.
Knowledge--->wholesome states--->shame and fear of wrongdoing--->no wrongdoing--->good bourn or no bourn.
If "no wrongdoing" = sila, it is easy to see the logic of resulting "good bourn," but getting to "no bourn" seems to require some intervening steps! (Unless the "knowledge" cause is deep enough.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

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JohnK wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:24 pm Yeah, I may be getting too academic, but it is called a study group -- and it is better than getting this involved in something less wholesome.
:anjali:
Thanks for this post, John, and for taking the time to respond to this week’s presentation, which I may have to admit might have been a bit too tedious for most.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:22 am ...this week’s presentation, which I may have to admit might have been a bit too tedious for most.
I figured it was my posts that were likely getting tedious!
(I may continue anyway.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by mikenz66 »

JohnK wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:53 pm I figured it was my posts that were likely getting tedious!
(I may continue anyway.)
Please do!
:heart:
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am
Paññāparihīnasutta (Deprived of Wisdom) Iti 41 (PTS Iti 36)
  • This was said by the Lord, said by the Arahant, so I heard:

    “Bhikkhus, those beings are thoroughly deprived who are deprived of noble wisdom. They live in discomfort even here and now, with vexation, trouble, and distress, and when the body perishes at death a bad bourn is to be expected.

    “Those beings are not deprived who are not deprived of noble wisdom. They live in comfort here and now, without vexation, trouble, or distress, and when the body perishes at death a good bourn is to be expected.”

    See the world with its devas,
    Destitute of wisdom,
    Established in name-and-form,
    Conceiving this to be the truth.

    Wisdom which leads to penetration
    Is the best thing in the world;
    By this one completely understands
    The ending of both birth and being.

    Devas and human beings hold dear
    Those awakened ones ever mindful,
    Possessing joyous wisdom,
    Bearing their final bodies.

    This too is the meaning of what was said by the Lord, so I heard.
This sutta continues with concise causal statements:
No noble wisdom--->distress now.
No noble wisdom--->bad bourn.
I did not place "bad bourn" causally after "distress now," as it is not the present distress that causes the bad bourn.
(If I had better diagramming skills, I would have shown two separate arrows from "no noble wisdom.")

Noble wisdom--->comfort now.
Noble wisdom--->good bourn.
As above, it is not the present comfort that causes the good bourn (correlation is not causation).

I think the best part of this sutta, however, is not its presentation of causes, but the refining of the usual sense of "deprivation." No matter your worldly deprivation, if you have noble wisdom, you are not deprived.
And, if you lack noble wisdom, you are "thoroughly deprived" -- no matter what your worldly situation is.
To really get this is to be transformed -- noble wisdom I suppose.
So, while the sutta does not directly address a cause for acquiring noble wisdom, hearing it deeply could be such cause -- it contains the cause within it -- hearing and understanding the teaching. (This paragraph seems to point to the limits of a strict "causal diagram" approach -- yet, as seen here, this approach does not preclude seeing beyond it.)

The verse appears to add "penetration" as an element to the causal chain at "Wisdom which leads to penetration." However, I hear that rather as a clarification/definition of "noble" wisdom (vs. "regular old" wisdom which does not lead to penetration).
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am Paṭisallānasutta (Living in Seclusion) Iti 45 (PTS Iti 40)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Live enjoying seclusion, bhikkhus; live delighting in seclusion, engage in practising inner mental tranquillity, not neglecting meditation, possessing insight, and frequenting empty places. If you live enjoying seclusion, bhikkhus, … and frequenting empty places, one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”...
Causally speaking, this sutta specifies a number of causal elements for final knowledge or non-returning.
However, because of the use of "and" in the list, I see these more as a single cluster, so I would not diagram them as individual (sufficient) causes. This sutta does not indicate any causal relationships among the various causes, and it does not specify any cause as more important than any other (though the emphasis here is on seclusion/meditation/mental tranquility rather than insight).
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍The Itivuttaka. Brought to you by Khujjuttarā and John D. Ireland (Week of August 1, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:37 am
Sikkhānisaṁsasutta (The Benefits of the Training) Iti 46 (PTS Iti 41)
  • This was said by the Lord…

    “Bhikkhus, live so as to realize the benefits of the training, the attainment of higher wisdom, the essence of release, and the control of mindfulness. Bhikkhus, if you live to realize the benefits of the training … one of two fruits is to be expected: final knowledge here and now or, there being some residual defilement, the state of non-returning.”...
Again, we have a list of causes for final knowledge or non-returning.
As previously, the use of "and" could suggest a single cluster rather than single sufficient causes.
A colon after "the benefits of the training" however would suggest that training causes the then listed benefits -- that feels right to me (even w/o the colon and given the title of the sutta).
As before, there is no indication of causal relationships among the specific benefits. And again, there is no indication of causal priority (or power) among the benefits of training in causing final knowledge or non-return.

Perhaps more interesting here: "live so as to realize" seems to be a cause between training and its full benefits.
On one hand, that "living" could be thought of as a part of the training -- not deserving its own spot in a causal diagram.
However, this sutta seems to emphasize the need to live (actualize/embody) the training for it to be fully realized and result in final knowledge. So, I'll diagram like that.

Training--->living (as to realize)--->[wisdom/release/mindfulness]--->final knowledge or non-returning.

Edit -- breaking it out a bit:
Training--->living (as to realize)--->[wisdom/release/mindfulness]--->no defilement--->final knowledge.
(I won't attempt to causally diagram "residual defilement" for non-return -- different causes than the current list.)
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