🟩 The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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🟩 The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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:reading:

Seven selections this week, with an eighth as support. Don't worry, they're not long! Two from the MN (excerpts only), four from the Udāna (KN), one from the Itivuttaka (KN), and perhaps some help from one in the SN. The theme is nibbāna, what it is and what it is not, according to the descriptions in the following suttas. Whether it be in terms of suffering, birth, taints or fetters, there are plenty of instances in the suttas that describe what has been destroyed as a result of reaching the goal of the holy life, but what's intriguing about several of these selections is a clear affirmation of what is - described using both atthi and hoti, the former being the stronger of the two ways of saying "there is".

The excerpt from MN 140 is a brazen description of the sage at peace. Here the Buddha unequivocally declares the sage, "...is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn." What are the implications here? Why not say the sage will not be born (again), will not age, will not die, etc.? Why the immediacy? It seems this is saying that here and now - while there is still a living body - the sage is not born. Does this mean that the birth of that currently living body (which will age and will perish) is secondary to the general experience of the sage at peace, which does not age or die? Is the experience now more than just the range of that body, and would it limit the extent of the insight if the distinction is not clear?

Can SN 22.26 (Pathways of Language) offer any assistance with how to interpret the use of "is”?

No additional questions to follow. Looking forward to the discussion. :smile:
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📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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:reading:


Khuddakanikāya
Udāna
Paṭhamanibbānapaṭisaṁyuttasutta (The First Discourse about Nibbāna) Ud 8.1
Translated by Bhikkhu Anandajoti

  • Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

    Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

    “There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”

Dutiyanibbānasuttaṁ (The Second Discourse about Nibbāna) Ud 8.2
  • Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

    Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

    “What is called ‘the uninclined’ Emancipation is hard to see,
    for it is not easy to see the truth,
    For the one who knows, who has penetrated craving,
    for the one who sees there is nothing no defilements.”

Tatiyanibbānasuttaṁ (The Third Discourse about Nibbāna) Ud 8.3
  • Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

    Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

    “There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned. If, monks there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, you could not know an escape here from the born, become, made, and conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore you do know an escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned.”

Catutthanibbānasuttaṁ (The Fourth Discourse about Nibbāna) Ud 8.4
  • Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

    Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

    “For the dependent there is agitation,
    for the independent there is no agitation.

    “When there is no agitation there is calm,
    when there is calm there is no inclining.

    “When there is no inclining,
    there is no coming or going.

    “When there is no coming or going,
    there is no passing away and rebirth.

    “When there is no passing away and rebirth,
    there is no here or hereafter or in between the two—
    just this is the end of suffering.”


Itivuttaka
Ajātasutta (The Not-Born) Iti 43
Translated by John D. Ireland

  • This was said by the Lord…

    “There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.”

    The born, come-to-be, produced,
    The made, the conditioned, the transient,
    Conjoined with decay and death,
    A nest of disease, perishable,
    Sprung from nutriment and craving’s cord—
    That is not fit to take delight in.

    The escape from that, the peaceful,
    Beyond reasoning, everlasting,
    The not-born, the unproduced,
    The sorrowless state that is void of stain,
    The cessation of states linked to suffering,
    The stilling of the conditioned—bliss.


Majjhima Nikāya
Dhātuvibhaṅgasutta (The Analysis of the Elements) MN 140
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

  • ...By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

    “So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these foundations, and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’
    ...

Majjhima Nikāya
Mūlapariyāyasutta (The Root of All Things) MN 1
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

  • ...Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an arahant…completely liberated through final knowledge, he too directly knows nibbāna as nibbāna. Having directly known nibbāna as nibbāna, he does not conceive himself as nibbāna, he does not conceive himself in nibbāna, he does not conceive himself apart from nibbāna, he does not conceive nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he does not delight in nibbāna. Why is that? Because he is free from delusion through the destruction of delusion.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:54 am "...not born..." ("na jāyati")
Is "jāyati" in the suttas ever used to refer to physical rebirth? :shrug:
Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, pemāni jāyanti. Katamāni cattāri? Pemā pemaṃ jāyati, pemā
doso jāyati, dosā pemaṃ jāyati, dosā doso jāyati.

Monks, these four things are born. Which four? Affection is born of affection. Aversion
is born of affection. Affection is born of aversion. Aversion is born of aversion.

AN 4.200
When one is gladdened, rapture is born (pamuditassa pīti jāyati). When the mind is
uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil.

SN 35.97
Piyato jāyatī soko, piyato jāyatī bhayaṃ
From affection springs grief, from affection springs fear.

Dhammapada 212
Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.

Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;
anāgate, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;
paccuppanne, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati

AN 3.112
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:10 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:54 am "...not born..." ("na jāyati")
Is "jāyati" in the suttas ever used to refer to physical rebirth? :shrug:
In my searches for this week I was unable to find a case where the negation was used for “rebirth”.

Are you referring to the relationship between jāti and jāyati (birth and born) as far as the body is concerned?

In SN 12.65 it is there in the same 3rd person present, jāyati: kicchā vatāyaṁ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca. Atha ca panimassa dukkhassa nissaraṇaṁ nappajānāti jarāmaraṇassa “Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death.”

And further down, I believe is the optative, jāyetha: Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṁ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ “ It is to this extent that one may be born and age and die, pass away and be reborn, that is, when there is consciousness with name-and-form as its condition…”

I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here upapajjati is what gets rendered “rebirth”.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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Similar in AN 4.45: Yattha kho, āvuso, na jāyati na jīyati na mīyati na cavati na upapajjati, nāhaṁ taṁ gamanena lokassa antaṁ ñāteyyaṁ daṭṭheyyaṁ patteyyanti vadāmī”ti.“I say, friend, that by traveling one cannot know, see, or reach that end of the world where one is not born, does not grow old and die, does not pass away and get reborn.”

Again, not sure if this is what you’re looking for.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 am Are you referring to the relationship between jāti and jāyati (birth and born) as far as the body is concerned?
Jayati appears to be the verb form of the noun jati.
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 amIn SN 12.65 it is there in the same 3rd person present, jāyati: kicchā vatāyaṁ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca. Atha ca panimassa dukkhassa nissaraṇaṁ nappajānāti jarāmaraṇassa “Alas, this world has fallen into trouble, in that it is born, ages, and dies, it passes away and is reborn, yet it does not understand the escape from this suffering headed by aging-and-death.”
Yes, but the above is merely a translation and, unlike the quotes i previously posted, provides no unambiguous contextual explanation of the relevant words. The quotes i posted unambiguously refer to mental states being born. So what does it mean that "the world" is "born"?
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 amAnd further down, I believe is the optative, jāyetha: Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jīyetha vā mīyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṁ nāmarūpapaccayā viññāṇaṁ “ It is to this extent that one may be born and age and die, pass away and be reborn, that is, when there is consciousness with name-and-form as its condition…”
I don't know what "optative" means however the above still does not appear to explain what "jāyetha" means. Without regard to the unambiguous uses of the word in other suttas, the above appears merely subject to idiosyncratic interpretation.
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 amI’m not sure if this is what you are looking for, but here upapajjati is what gets rendered “rebirth”.
The root of "upapajjati" is "pad" and not the root "jan" found in "jati". Despite the similar Romanized spelling, it appears "jati" and "upapajjati" have no linguistic relationship. My viewpoint is ""upapajjati" literally means "to proceed/follow similar to before". This again appears to offer no explanation of what "jayati" actually means.

Therefore, returning to MN 140, it says:
By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?
Therefore, the impression is what is "born" is "conceiving I am".
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:57 am I don't know what "optative" means however the above still does not appear to explain what "jāyetha" means. Without regard to the unambiguous uses of the word in other suttas, the above appears merely subject to idiosyncratic interpretation.
The sequence in AN 4.45 of “born, grow old, die and reborn” seems to imply that Rohitassa was asking the Buddha about life in general, not conceiving (it doesn’t appear that Rohitassa had that degree of understanding - not at the start of the sutta at least). I’m not saying you’re wrong, but the Pali in MN 140, SN 12.65, AN 4.45 and others also include the same sequence in slightly different ways. Yes the other suttas you posted are clear in their meaning, but those are cases of jāyati out of this specific context.

I appreciate that Ven. BB keeps it as “born” - others went right to “take birth” and “being born”.

Almost time to turn in. I’ll be around tomorrow… :smile: :zzz:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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Thinking of the Arrow Sutta, I take the MN 140 passage to mean that the sage is freed from the mental anguish associated with birth, aging and death.
The sage doesn't conceive of him/her self being born, aging or dying. They no longer view their body as "me" and "mine".
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:29 am The sequence in AN 4.45 of “born, grow old, die and reborn” seems to imply....
Yes, to you it "implies" whatever your imagination, underlying tendencies, mental disposition, etc, implies... :?
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:29 am but those are cases of jāyati out of this specific context.
Unlikely. Refer to SN 12.15 and SN 12.44 about the arising of the world. Refer to the end of AN 4.45 (which u already mentioned), which says the world, the arising of the world, the cessation of the world & the path to cessation occurs within this six-foot long body, with perception & thought.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:30 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:29 am The sequence in AN 4.45 of “born, grow old, die and reborn” seems to imply....
Yes, to you it "implies" whatever your imagination, underlying tendencies, mental disposition, etc, implies... :?
That's unkind, given that SDC had taken the time to present this topic for discussion.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:56 am
Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?
What is the point of saying "how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:30 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:29 am The sequence in AN 4.45 of “born, grow old, die and reborn” seems to imply....
Yes, to you it "implies" whatever your imagination, underlying tendencies, mental disposition, etc, implies... :?
Obviously. I can only say what I think. My comments are clearly offered as suggestions for discussing the meaning. I’m here to facilitate discussion, not be a teacher.

Thank you for sharing your own views here and I hope you continue to do so.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:35 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:56 am
Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?
What is the point of saying "how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?"? :shrug:
Good question. That’s why I found the passage so intriguing:

Muni kho pana, bhikkhu, santo na jāyati, na jīyati, na mīyati, na kuppati, na piheti. Tañhissa, bhikkhu, natthi yena jāyetha, ajāyamāno kiṁ jīyissati, ajīyamāno kiṁ mīyissati, amīyamāno kiṁ kuppissati, akuppamāno kissa pihessati? “And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?”
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:20 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:30 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:29 am The sequence in AN 4.45 of “born, grow old, die and reborn” seems to imply....
Yes, to you it "implies" whatever your imagination, underlying tendencies, mental disposition, etc, implies... :?
That's unkind, given that SDC had taken the time to present this topic for discussion.
Thank you, Spiny, but I’m sure DD understands that I’m not shaken by his objections. I am out on limb with what I’m asking of the group this week, but it is my hope that it continues to keep a good discussion going.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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