🟩 The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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mjaviem
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:34 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:43 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:52 am ... But I'm not sure it makes sense to say that "I am" is repeatedly born, ages and dies, given that it appears to be continuously present in the background.
The king of the hill is born, ages and dies. You are not king of the hill forever.
Sorry but I don't understand how your comment relates to mine. Could you elaborate?
It would be better if it's you who elaborates what does "I am is continously present" mean.

I was trying to show you that you can remember/imagine having been the king of the hill while playing: you became the king and after a while that sense of being the king of the hill eventually died. There you can see it makes sense to say "I am is born, ages and dies".
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equilibrium
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

3. Further analysis on the mind under the unconditioned:
Unconditioned:

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.
The mind, in the unborn state…..is the ultimate of the teaching of the middle way. This state of mind goes right through between the two extremes of existence and non-existence.....hence called the "un-born, the escape from the born".....so clearly, it is not annihilation. The buddha has done this already as he "dwells with unrestricted awareness".....permanently.....with no "alteration" while it persist.....and no vanishing.

Though one wonders how this actually works?.....because your mind is actually formless. This also makes sense because if one cannot escape samsara, the mind that is under delusion/ignorance will lead to another form of existence, at death, re-birth linking consciousness links this formless mind, covering it so it doesn't experience Nibbana and continues to its life form whatever that maybe.....potentially many lives!!

On the other hand, where one has escaped samsara, that mind, having reached the unconditioned state, the original unborn state, would not be reborn. The re-birth linking consciousness here cannot find the mind as it is unborn, hence escape from samsara is achieved.....sutra on re-birth linking consciousness: SN 22.87:
That is mara, the evil one. He is searching for the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman: "Where is the consciousness of Vakkali the clansman established?" But, monks, through unestablished consciousness, Vakkali the clansman has attained total Nibbana"
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:50 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 7:34 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:43 pm
The king of the hill is born, ages and dies. You are not king of the hill forever.
Sorry but I don't understand how your comment relates to mine. Could you elaborate?
It would be better if it's you who elaborates what does "I am is continously present" mean.

I was trying to show you that you can remember/imagine having been the king of the hill while playing: you became the king and after a while that sense of being the king of the hill eventually died. There you can see it makes sense to say "I am is born, ages and dies".
That isn't how I see it. In my experience, "I am" is continuously present, but manifests in different ways at different times. "I am" is like a deeply entrenched underlying assumption, and not something which comes and goes.
Changing identities are a symptom of it, and not a definition. So for example, if you change jobs, the sense of "I am" transfers from one role to another.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mjaviem
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:15 pm That isn't how I see it. In my experience, "I am" is continuously present, but manifests in different ways at different times. "I am" is like a deeply entrenched underlying assumption, and not something which comes and goes.
Changing identities are a symptom of it, and not a definition.
That's because you are playing and haven't finished playing yet a bigger game, I would say. :anjali:
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Sorry for butting in, I am studying abhidhamma, and it is frying my brain, thus needed a distraction.
Spiny Norman wrote
Sorry but I don't understand how your comment relates to mine.
Could you elaborate?
I think mjaviem using the phrase "King of the hill dies" is trying to show: the idea of king rises, remains momentarily, and dies.
He is referring to DO. Vinnana is newly born every second, via eye, ear etc. Each cognition eye cognition, ear cognition etc of the unenlightened originates, with the subtle acquisition of a new "I" label.
Hence some say self dies and is reborn every second.
In the Arahant this cannot happen, since there is no limitation to self. Or one can say he is immeasurable, or cannot be detected. His vinnana is boundless. Some call it "Vinnanam anidassanam"
Just fancy words.
So if your arising vinnana does not get labelled as such with an "I", then that must mean you got rid of worldly vinnana. If so at that moment you are awakened, pesky self/vinnana has left.
Congratulations!
This happening is not in the background. You wrote But I'm not sure it makes sense to say that "I am" is repeatedly born, ages and dies, given that it appears to be continuously present in the background.It is very much in the foreground. As one set of aggregates dies, another set is born. As each new vinnana is born, it creates Nama-Rupa, and continues the story of samsara.
Not sure whether this makes sense to you. I wanted to wake myself up from my lethargy. Do you get it?
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:20 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:15 pm That isn't how I see it. In my experience, "I am" is continuously present, but manifests in different ways at different times. "I am" is like a deeply entrenched underlying assumption, and not something which comes and goes.
Changing identities are a symptom of it, and not a definition.
That's because you are playing and haven't finished playing yet a bigger game, I would say. :anjali:
I have no idea how this relates to what I said. Please explain how I am "playing", and what this "bigger game" is supposed to be.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:21 pm Sorry for butting in, I am studying abhidhamma, and it is frying my brain, thus needed a distraction.
Spiny Norman wrote
Sorry but I don't understand how your comment relates to mine.
Could you elaborate?
I think mjaviem using the phrase "King of the hill dies" is trying to show: the idea of king rises, remains momentarily, and dies.
He is referring to DO. Vinnana is newly born every second, via eye, ear etc. Each cognition eye cognition, ear cognition etc of the unenlightened originates, with the subtle acquisition of a new "I" label.
Hence some say self dies and is reborn every second.
In the Arahant this cannot happen, since there is no limitation to self. Or one can say he is immeasurable, or cannot be detected. His vinnana is boundless. Some call it "Vinnanam anidassanam"
Just fancy words.
So if your arising vinnana does not get labelled as such with an "I", then that must mean you got rid of worldly vinnana. If so at that moment you are awakened, pesky self/vinnana has left.
Congratulations!
This happening is not in the background. You wrote But I'm not sure it makes sense to say that "I am" is repeatedly born, ages and dies, given that it appears to be continuously present in the background.It is very much in the foreground. As one set of aggregates dies, another set is born. As each new vinnana is born, it creates Nama-Rupa, and continues the story of samsara.
Not sure whether this makes sense to you. I wanted to wake myself up from my lethargy. Do you get it?
With love :candle:
Thanks, but I wasn't talking about vinnana, I was talking about "I am" as a persistent self-view.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote
Though one wonders how this actually works?.....because your mind is actually formless.
How can the mind be formless when it is constantly creating Nama-Rupa(form). By mind I mean vinnana of the ordinary folks. Unless the ordinary person had reached 4th jhana, and got rid of form. Or were you referring to the Arahant? If so that mind is formless and does not engage in DO, by creating Nama-rupa (form)
Best :candle:
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:26 pm I have no idea how this relates to what I said. Please explain how I am "playing", and what this "bigger game" is supposed to be.
You are "playing" because you pretend to be someone. (The same goes for me, heh!). The "bigger game" is this existence of yours (and mine) with all its goals.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote
Thanks, but I wasn't talking about vinnana, I was talking about "I am" as a persistent self-view.
Where does the self view reside, according to your understanding?
Best :candle:
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:03 pm … 
Dearest Pulsar,

I take the cook sutta in the same way I take our favorite, AN 11.9. There are signs/indications of the king’s preference based on how he treats the various dishes; what he grabs for and what he clearly enjoys. A good cook takes notice of these signs so that he can then only cook what the king enjoys at the time he wants to enjoy them. A bad cook does not pay attention during the meal; he doesn’t pick up on the signs of the king’s preference. In AN 11.9 the thoroughbred horse doesn’t just focus on the hay in front of him - for the thoroughbred the presence of his food is a sign - it makes him think about what his master will ask of him after he is fed. To paraphrase Ajahn Nyanamoli, who has talked about his sutta in a number of talks, the thoroughbred looks for what is implied by the feeding he is receiving, while the wild colt just thinks about the food.

Apply these to the practice of mindfulness, while the bhikkhu may be doing the mindfulness right according to the sutta, he doesn’t pick up the sign of the mind, he doesn’t pick up on what is implied now that there is clarity supported by his mindfulness. He doesn’t develop samadhi and his corruptions aren’t removed. He isn’t looking past his mindfulness to the available relinquishment and seclusion. Without relinquishment and seclusion from sensuality (see MN 19) there is no unity of mind, no tranquility and no samadhi.

You make many good points, but based on how I’ve come to understand these suttas, I am unable to see how they could be later corruptions. But you are absolutely right, so much of what came later in commentary makes it very hard to find these subtle treatments found in these suttas.

I am grateful we are able to pick at them together - this has been a great study session and everyone has pushed themselves. Very nice to see.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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ToVincent wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thanks again SDC
Much appreciated! And thank you!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

4. Knowledge and vision:

This is by far the most important bit of the teaching and what the buddha wanted you to see/experience.....and the most difficult to explain/express and understand.
Whenever one experiences the arising and the passing away of the mental and physical processes, he enjoys bliss and delight. He attains the deathless as attained by the wise.
This arising and the passing away is what happens when your mind cross the line between the conditioned and unconditioned. The mental here is the mind arising and the physical is the body.

The arising is the mental, which is the unborn state of the mind. Notice it says arising, it is arising because you mind in entering the unconditioned and it appears to be arising. remember, under the unconditioned, "no arising is seen" so how can the mind arise? This is because the mind is always there, hidden within the physical body. Objects cannot enter into the unconditioned state as objects do not have an unborn state. Furthermore, nothing here is being created because you cannot create the unborn mind. While the mind appears to arise, at the same time, the physical appears to fall or passing away as it cannot enter that state. Physical doesn't have the properties of unborn.

This is also where under MN 140:
the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die
By entering this dimension, one knows the mind were never born in the first place, it cannot die either.....these are the same characteristics as the "unconditioned".....and it should be.....its unborn.

When we say enlighten, it is the mind that is being freed and not the body. Furthermore, it is the original state, the unborn so the mind here had always been there within the body and within this void. You cannot create this unborn mind, its merely an escape out of samsara....the middle way, avoiding the extremes.

The delusion that one always says I-am this body will fall away because your entire life up to now had been the body, now you will say I am this...now you see with the mind too, yes!! (you cannot put a physical eye in the unborn state can you!!) so this entire attachment with the body falls away.......automatically....disenchantment, dispassion, emancipation, cankers.
"The destruction of the crankers is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one does not know and does not see". The defilements, epitomized in the "crankers", are only destroyed for one who overcomes ignorance by wisdom which knows and sees things as they are.
Wisdom here is the actual knowledge and vision experience while in the unconditioned state / Nibbana. Ignorance is the mind of not knowing.....so one needs to know.

There is a nice sutra on the I-am.....AN 6.13:
Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although "I am" is gone, and I do not assume that "I am this," still the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity keeps overpowering my mind.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that — when "I am" is gone, and "I am this" is not assumed — the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity would keep overpowering the mind. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from the arrow of uncertainty & perplexity: the uprooting of the conceit, "I am.
Furthermore, this unborn state cannot be called existence because it would mean that it would die....so careful use of word are necessary but we are limited to describe that which is so difficult to express.
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equilibrium
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:34 pm Equilibrium wrote
Though one wonders how this actually works?.....because your mind is actually formless.
How can the mind be formless when it is constantly creating Nama-Rupa(form). By mind I mean vinnana of the ordinary folks. Unless the ordinary person had reached 4th jhana, and got rid of form. Or were you referring to the Arahant? If so that mind is formless and does not engage in DO, by creating Nama-rupa (form)
Best :candle:
The mind am referring to is not that of vinnana (consciousness) because that is conditioned and it is not permanent.
Everyone has this mind within them and not only the Arahant. The difference is the Arahant have discovered it for themselves......that's why they are awakened.
Depends on what you mean by engage, it is aware of it but it is released from DO as delusion is destroyed by the discovery.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote "Of a permanentt mind"
everyone has this mind
Hogwash. There is one tiny sutta in the Anguttara that hints of a radiant mind hiding under the muck. Pabhassara Sutta link https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN1_50.html
Some brahmanical convert (maniac) packed this inside the sutta pitaka, is my guess. There are such ideas in the Upanisads. Why is this the only time Buddha refers to this excellent mind?
If there is no permanency in the dependently risen consciousness, how can impermanency hide a permanent mind free of flaws?
It goes against the entire teaching of the Buddha, which advices neither existence nor non-existence. Kaccayanagotta.
Now Pabhassara sutta tells me a pure radiant mind exists. Should I believe it?
O vanity! how i like to believe there is a radiance hiding beneath my muck filled mind. It makes my ego ride high. The sutta only leads to another attachment "My Radiant Mind"
Pl give this a peek https://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/10/29 ... iant-mind/
Be well :candle:
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