🟧 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

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🟧 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


A fairly straightforward selection - and the first I have pulled from the Udāna this year - the Bhaddiyasutta takes a brief look into the experience of Bhaddiya, formerly of the aristocratic class of the Sākyans. Having grown suspicious that this former royal has become dissatisfied with the holy life, several bhikkhus decide to bring the case before the Buddha, at which point he summons Bhaddiya for questioning. While short on any deep descriptions of Dhamma, this sutta highlights an ironic state of affairs for this arahant monk - a stunning alteration that has become a matter of bliss for Ven. Bhaddiya, which leaves a lasting impression of just how sweet and liberating the holy life can be.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


Udāna
Bhaddiyasutta (With Bhaddiya) Ud 2.10 (PTS 19–20)
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Anupiya in a mango grove. Now at that time, Venerable Bhaddiya the son of Kāḷīgodhā, even in the wilderness, at the foot of a tree, or in an empty dwelling, frequently expressed this heartfelt sentiment: “Oh, what bliss! Oh, what bliss!”

    Several mendicants heard him and thought, “Without a doubt, Venerable Bhaddiya leads the spiritual life dissatisfied. It’s when recalling the pleasures of royalty he formerly enjoyed as a lay person that, even in the wilderness, at the foot of a tree, or in an empty dwelling, he frequently expresses this heartfelt sentiment: ‘Oh, what bliss! Oh, what bliss!’

    Then those mendicants went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and told him what was happening.

    So the Buddha addressed a certain monk, “Please, monk, in my name tell the mendicant Bhaddiya that the teacher summons him.”

    “Yes, sir,” that monk replied. He went to Bhaddiya and said to him, “Reverend Bhaddiya, the teacher summons you.” “Yes, reverend,” Bhaddiya replied. He went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him:

    “Is it really true, Bhaddiya, that even in the wilderness, at the foot of a tree, or in an empty dwelling, you frequently express this heartfelt sentiment: ‘Oh, what bliss! Oh, what bliss!’” “Yes, sir.”

    “But why do you say this?” “Formerly, as a lay person ruling the land, my guard was well organized within and without the royal compound, within and without the city, and within and without the country. But although I was guarded and defended in this way, I remained fearful, scared, suspicious, and nervous. But these days, even when alone in the wilderness, at the foot of a tree, or in an empty dwelling, I’m not fearful, scared, suspicious, or nervous. I live relaxed, unruffled, surviving on charity, my heart free as a wild deer. It is for this reason that, even in the wilderness, at the foot of a tree, or in an empty dwelling, I frequently expressed this heartfelt sentiment: ‘Oh, what bliss! Oh, what bliss!’”

    Then, knowing the meaning of this, on that occasion the Buddha expressed this heartfelt sentiment:

    “They who hide no anger within,
    gone beyond any kind of existence;
    happy, free from fear and sorrow—
    even the gods can’t see them.”
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📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?
  • I think the most impactful moment in this description is hearing the Ven. Bhaddiya describe that despite all the loyal subjects, protection and safety he had established as a wealthy royal, it still left him feeling nervous and anxious, but now that he has become an arahant, even with practically no physical protection, he is relaxed, free as a wild deer.
    AN 3.39 wrote:...Intoxicated with youth, a bhikkhu gives up the training and reverts to the lower life; or intoxicated with health, he gives up the training and reverts to the lower life; or intoxicated with life, he gives up the training and reverts to the lower life.
    Most of us in the modern world find ourselves in positions of relative safety and capable of keeping suffering well-managed (to borrow from Ajahn Nyanamoli), yet many experience the same stress and anxiety just as Ven. Bhaddiya did. On the other hand many find themselves intoxicated as described above in AN 3.39. Further:
    SN 36.31 wrote:Bhikkhus, there is carnal rapture, there is spiritual rapture, there is rapture more spiritual than the spiritual. There is carnal happiness, there is spiritual happiness, there is happiness more spiritual than the spiritual. There is carnal equanimity, there is spiritual equanimity, there is equanimity more spiritual than the spiritual. There is carnal deliverance, there is spiritual deliverance, there is deliverance more spiritual than the spiritual.

    “And what, bhikkhus, is carnal rapture? There are, bhikkhus, these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye … tactile objects cognizable by the body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. The rapture that arises in dependence on these five cords of sensual pleasure: this is called carnal rapture.
    “And what, bhikkhus, is spiritual rapture? [continue reading]
    I found it interesting that the other bhikkhus so quickly assumed he was muttering about bliss of the lay life. So, taking into account the different raptures described in SN 36.31 and the intoxication of AN 3.39, is it valid to say there is bliss on both ends of ignorance? Is it possible that one could be so enamored with the comfort of the lay life that they see no danger in it whatsoever? Does the case of Ven. Bhaddiya show us that no degree of control is enough to claim safety (or bliss) in the lay life, in the world? That there is no way to manage suffering well enough that it would mimic liberation? What can we learn from this case?
Looking forward to this week's discussion. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

A beautiful selection Dear SDC, thank you.
the poem regarding the Arahant's dwelling 
“They who hide no anger within,
gone beyond any kind of existence;
happy, free from fear and sorrow—
even the gods can’t see them.”.
reminds me of references to such, elsewhere. Kajjaniya and Sandha sutta.
Kajjaniya sutta SN 22.79 ends 
"And to the monk whose mind is thus released, the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:
'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —you of whom we don't know even what dependent on which you're absorbed.'"
And from Sandha Sutta AN 11.10
"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
this world, the next world, nor on
and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is dependent on which you're absorbed.'
"
In texts such as these we get a glimpse into the released mind, that of the Arahant, which is not stuck on
  • whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by confusedlayman »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:00 pm A beautiful selection Dear SDC, thank you.
the poem regarding the Arahant's dwelling 
“They who hide no anger within,
gone beyond any kind of existence;
happy, free from fear and sorrow—
even the gods can’t see them.”.
reminds me of references to such, elsewhere. Kajjaniya and Sandha sutta.
Kajjaniya sutta SN 22.79 ends 
"And to the monk whose mind is thus released, the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:
'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —you of whom we don't know even what dependent on which you're absorbed.'"
And from Sandha Sutta AN 11.10
"Absorbed in this way, the excellent thoroughbred of a man is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
this world, the next world, nor on
and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man.
Homage to you, O superlative man —
you of whom we don't know even what it is dependent on which you're absorbed.'
"
In texts such as these we get a glimpse into the released mind, that of the Arahant, which is not stuck on
  • whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect
With love :candle:
how this is related to non thinking or non fabrication where nothing is discrened in present moment?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Confusedlayman wrote
how this is related to non thinking or non fabrication where nothing is discrened in present moment?
The difficulty of explaining this to you (one cannot take a moment apart) is found in this statement, found in all of the above suttas.
  • "Not even the gods can see him"

Why can't the gods see him? They cannot see the Arahant, because even though the Arahant seemingly dwells in the sensory world (puthujjana's take), s/he has left the sensory world.
A large amount of disputes on these forums are due to the fact a majority of buddhists perceive the Arahant unrealistically, or even Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi unrealistically.
This is a fact. In order to take you there, I could struggle to explain, that which not even the gods can see.
But first you need to tell me what the Buddha woke upto? It is called Dharmata or the emptiness of Dependent Origination, how the aggregates rise? How do you stop them from arising?
I am not sure whether this particular sutta study lends itself to such a lengthy explanation.
Can you explain to the forum what the Buddha woke up to?
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

Just a little anecdote from me this week.

This summer I was on retreat studying samatha meditation among the rural Welsh hills. Sometimes when we looked out of the windows of the dining room we would see wild deer warily venturing onto the lawns. The other retreatants said that the deer were gradually growing more fearless, as the only humans they saw at the centre were harmless and sat very still or walked predictably back and forth. Normally the deer are very frightened of local farmers, who often have dogs and guns and make a lot of noise. We were able to identify the individual animals - there were four or five of them.

One morning we were just finishing a sitting in the meditation hall (the one pictured as my avatar, as it happens). One retreatant quietly said "Look!", and pointed. The mother deer had brought her two babies down to see the centre. She was standing right next to the window, watching over the fawns as they skipped around. We crept over to the window to get a closer look. Maybe the angle of the light stopped her seeing us, but she was only a couple of feet away.

What really struck me was her combination of absolute stillness, and superb alertness. Not the slightest movement, but she was not dull or in any sense passive; vigilant, but without any sense of jumpiness or anxiety. These two faculties seemed to be in perfect balance. The phrase from the sutta came to me: "heart free as a wild deer". Then, of course, someone made a tiny noise or a too-sudden movement, and the deer were gone.

I'd read the phrase before, but felt that only now did I understand it. Maybe the compilers of the Canon didn't intend it that way, and it had an entirely different meaning in ancient India. But it certainly helped me. An object lesson in stillness and alertness, and how these qualities show up when we are quiet and harmless.
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:38 pm Just a little anecdote from me this week.

This summer I was on retreat studying samatha meditation among the rural Welsh hills. Sometimes when we looked out of the windows of the dining room we would see wild deer warily venturing onto the lawns. The other retreatants said that the deer were gradually growing more fearless, as the only humans they saw at the centre were harmless and sat very still or walked predictably back and forth. Normally the deer are very frightened of local farmers, who often have dogs and guns and make a lot of noise. We were able to identify the individual animals - there were four or five of them.

One morning we were just finishing a sitting in the meditation hall (the one pictured as my avatar, as it happens). One retreatant quietly said "Look!", and pointed. The mother deer had brought her two babies down to see the centre. She was standing right next to the window, watching over the fawns as they skipped around. We crept over to the window to get a closer look. Maybe the angle of the light stopped her seeing us, but she was only a couple of feet away.

What really struck me was her combination of absolute stillness, and superb alertness. Not the slightest movement, but she was not dull or in any sense passive; vigilant, but without any sense of jumpiness or anxiety. These two faculties seemed to be in perfect balance. The phrase from the sutta came to me: "heart free as a wild deer". Then, of course, someone made a tiny noise or a too-sudden movement, and the deer were gone.

I'd read the phrase before, but felt that only now did I understand it. Maybe the compilers of the Canon didn't intend it that way, and it had an entirely different meaning in ancient India. But it certainly helped me. An object lesson in stillness and alertness, and how these qualities show up when we are quiet and harmless.
Lovely story. Thanks for sharing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by Bundokji »

SDC wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:33 am I found it interesting that the other bhikkhus so quickly assumed he was muttering about bliss of the lay life. So, taking into account the different raptures described in SN 36.31 and the intoxication of AN 3.39, is it valid to say there is bliss on both ends of ignorance? Is it possible that one could be so enamored with the comfort of the lay life that they see no danger in it whatsoever? Does the case of Ven. Bhaddiya show us that no degree of control is enough to claim safety (or bliss) in the lay life, in the world? That there is no way to manage suffering well enough that it would mimic liberation? What can we learn from this case?[/list]
Strangely, the dangers of lay life is a major source of meaning. Life without struggle and attachments is not worth living for most people. Even when danger is seen, it is so common to lay life and misery loves company. This is why, the spiritual life begins where lay life ends: by encountering wise people and hopefully not taking them for granted.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:38 pm ...
Beautiful story! Thanks
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:00 pm A beautiful selection Dear SDC, thank you.
:anjali:

And thank you for those additional excerpts.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:38 pm Just a little anecdote from me this week.
Thank you for that, SV!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Not even the gods can see him, Ud 2.10 (Week of November 7, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:43 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:33 am I found it interesting that the other bhikkhus so quickly assumed he was muttering about bliss of the lay life. So, taking into account the different raptures described in SN 36.31 and the intoxication of AN 3.39, is it valid to say there is bliss on both ends of ignorance? Is it possible that one could be so enamored with the comfort of the lay life that they see no danger in it whatsoever? Does the case of Ven. Bhaddiya show us that no degree of control is enough to claim safety (or bliss) in the lay life, in the world? That there is no way to manage suffering well enough that it would mimic liberation? What can we learn from this case?[/list]
Strangely, the dangers of lay life is a major source of meaning. Life without struggle and attachments is not worth living for most people. Even when danger is seen, it is so common to lay life and misery loves company. This is why, the spiritual life begins where lay life ends: by encountering wise people and hopefully not taking them for granted.
Good posting!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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