Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

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TRobinson465
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Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Hello all,


I was recently at a Kathina at an Ajahn Mun lineage temple and noticed these little spherical things on the alter which is what got me thinking. Every once in a while i see Thai temples with these little spherical/crystal ball decorations either on the temple or on the alter.

Does anyone know the significance of these sphere objects? I've seen them at multiple Thai temples of various traditions. I obviously dont care if there is any canonical rationale for it, I just want to know the reason for them. Is it cultural, astrological, remnants of folk religion perhaps? Some photo examples of the things im talking about are attached below.


47571628_2185307261500417_2807936840873541632_n.jpg
crystal-ball-at-blue-temple-wat-rong-seur-ten-at-chiang-rai-north-of-thailand-2BKA86B.jpg
phetchabun-thailand-dec-202018-wat-260nw-1271944021.jpg
phetchabun-thailand-dec-202018-wat-260nw-1271944021.jpg (25.51 KiB) Viewed 1373 times
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
bhante dhamma
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by bhante dhamma »

Hi good Upāsakā, I can't help but wonder if indeed LP Man would subscribe to such thing's,and is it not just kāma papañca? I saw a video of a kathina ceremony of a monk (throwing what I assume to be amulets) to laypeople...? Maybe its indicating how with time the sati sampajañña of LP Man has gone from no frills austere kammatthana to taking refuge in things outside of sati-samadhi, what do you think..?
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

bhante dhamma wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:58 pm Hi good Upāsakā, I can't help but wonder if indeed LP Man would subscribe to such thing's,and is it not just kāma papañca? I saw a video of a kathina ceremony of a monk (throwing what I assume to be amulets) to laypeople...? Maybe its indicating how with time the sati sampajañña of LP Man has gone from no frills austere kammatthana to taking refuge in things outside of sati-samadhi, what do you think..?
Yes, well, I am unsure what Ajahn Mun would think of this tbh. The temple i mentioned was actually the first Buddhist temple i ever visited and i attended regularly for a few years before going to a different temple elsewhere. This was some 20 years ago so i hardly remember. I havent really attended an Ajahn Mun temple outside of things like Kathina for quite some time, not counting when i lived in San Diego and attended Wat Metta, although i consider "farang" temples like Wat Metta to be a different breed altogether. I was just visiting this temple on my annual kathina attendance tour.

That said, while i did see these at an Ajahn Mun temple, like i said before, you can see this iconography in a lot of different temples and im just curious what the reason for it is. I've seen these sphere things at Dhammakaya/Wat Paknam lineage temples often, but that makes sense because they practice Kasina meditation and even tell people to look at it as an example of an object of meditation. But this can't be the only reason, because ive seen these sphere things at other Thai temples that dont practice kasina meditation at all as well.

Anyways, to your original question. I dont remember enough from my time attending Ajahn Mun's lineage to give an informed opinion. I do think, from my limited knowledge, that the practice of having amulets and i guess whatever magic the spheres have, that it seems at odds with the overarching practices of Thai forest. But from what ive seen, Ajahn Mun amulets are quite prized so who knows. I know some esteemed masters issue amulets personally so its possible Ajahn Mun issued some personally, maybe? If Ajahn Mun did oppose amulets, i do think its possible this just deterioated with time, like all things, as protective amulets is quite engrained in Thai Buddhist culture.

I do not remember seeing things like amulet distribution at Wat Metta, but again, i do not think that is comparable.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by Ontheway »

A common sight among Thai temples...maybe it just a stone that marks the area where monks can perform Sanghakamma.

Giant Ball
w3.jpg

Thai devotees putting gold foils on those balls.
IMG_2494-1.jpg

Some Thai monks even make small ball as amulets (I hope they are aware of the Vinaya rules)
spd_20130225131920_b.jpg
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
bhante dhamma
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by bhante dhamma »

You would think at some point it would have been raised at a Saṅgha meeting by one of his direct disciples but actually then again the Thammayut scene isn't that 'sīla /diṭṭhi samaññutā' and in that regard I think the purity of the practice of LP Man and LP Sao has definitely become diluted, not that the A.Cja lineage is perfect either but at least things like magic balls and amulets would never be allowed to become mainstream, just recently in Thailand the Mahathera sangakom outlawed monks from driving maybe they could somehow outlaw 'micchā diṭṭhi vatthu' as well...
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:54 am A common sight among Thai temples...maybe it just a stone that marks the area where monks can perform Sanghakamma.
Yeah, ive noticed it at a variety of places, its often put on a shrine and people sometimes put gold leaf on it. it definitely feels like there is a sense of reverence to the spheres similar to the way people revere the Buddha statues. So i definitely feel like there has to be a significance to them. Its probably not canonical, but there has to be a reason.....
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by Ontheway »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:05 am
Ontheway wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:54 am A common sight among Thai temples...maybe it just a stone that marks the area where monks can perform Sanghakamma.
Yeah, ive noticed it at a variety of places, its often put on a shrine and people sometimes put gold leaf on it. it definitely feels like there is a sense of reverence to the spheres similar to the way people revere the Buddha statues. So i definitely feel like there has to be a significance to them. Its probably not canonical, but there has to be a reason.....
My guess is correct.

https://th.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8% ... 4%E0%B8%95

You can use Google translate to read the Thai passage.

นิมิต หมายถึงวัตถุที่เป็นเครื่องหมายบอกกำหนดเขตหรือแดนแห่งสีมา เป็นเครื่องหมายบอกเขตสีมาที่พระวินัยกำหนดให้ใช้ได้มี 8 อย่าง คือภูเขา ศิลา ป่าไม้ ต้นไม้ จอมปลวก หนทาง แม่น้ำ น้ำ แต่ที่นิยมกันมากที่สุดคือใช้ศิลาหรือหินเป็นนิมิต.

นิมิตที่เป็นศิลาหรือสกัดศิลาให้มีลักษณะกลมเส้นผ่าศูนย์กลางประมาณ 30-38 เซนติเมตร เรียกว่า ลูกนิมิต แต่ละสีมาจะใช้ 9 ลูก ก่อนทำสังฆกรรมผูกสีมานิยมจัดงานกันเอิกเกริกโดยถือกันว่าเป็นงานบุญใหญ่ เรียกว่า งานปิดทองลูกนิมิต เมื่อทำพิธีตามพระวินัยเสร็จแล้วจะฝังศิลานิมิตนั้นลงไปในดินแล้วสร้างซุ้มครอบไว้ข้างบนโดยมี ใบสีมา เป็นเครื่องหมายสังเกตว่าลูกนิมิตอยู่ตรงนั้น แต่หากใบสีมาเป็นศิลาที่ใหญ่พอ และปักติดลงไปในดิน ก็ไม่จำเป็นต้องมีลูกนิมิต.

But this is only refer to the stone balls. Those crystal balls maybe associated to Thai folk superstitious belief on "wish-fulfilling jewel".

Thai famous monk "Luang Phor Reusi Lingdam" created the "magic crystal ball" by "Buddha Abhishek ritual" and using "Paccekabuddha mantra" (which he told Thai Buddhists that this mantra bring merits and wealth).
12977270_1030342410369988_551447064047892348_o.jpg
Surprisingly, this Luang Phor also taught "wealth-generating mantra", making all sorts of amulets and statues (they are expensive), and most importantly this Luang Phor taught that there is a First Primordial SammasamBuddha that came before all Sammasambuddhas, called "สมเด็จพระพุทธสิกขี" (Somdet Phra Buddha Sikkhi), also can be known as "สมเด็จองค์ปฐมบรมครู" (Somdet Ong Pathom Parama Guru, which literally translated as the King, the First ever, the Ultimate Guru).
https://www.komchadluek.net/amulet/151880

A lot of wealthy, well-known, business man or rich Thai families believed in him and supported him. Even the Thai King Bhumibol Adulyadej pay a visit to him and venerated him.
download.jpeg
download.jpeg (8.8 KiB) Viewed 1228 times
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by Ontheway »

bhante dhamma wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:53 pm You would think at some point it would have been raised at a Saṅgha meeting by one of his direct disciples but actually then again the Thammayut scene isn't that 'sīla /diṭṭhi samaññutā' and in that regard I think the purity of the practice of LP Man and LP Sao has definitely become diluted, not that the A.Cja lineage is perfect either but at least things like magic balls and amulets would never be allowed to become mainstream, just recently in Thailand the Mahathera sangakom outlawed monks from driving maybe they could somehow outlaw 'micchā diṭṭhi vatthu' as well...
Hi Bhante Dhamma, I think that's part of Thai people culture. Before embracing Buddhism, Thai people used to be having animistic belief, Wicha (Magic) learning and Ghost cults. If you visit Thailand in future, you will notice that even monks are practicing witchcraft, making amulets or some rites & rituals that are not from Buddhist culture.

Poster for advertising new amulet products and which top Thai monk involved in it. (Google Image)
iq3ylx.jpg

Old Luang Phor "ปลุกเสก" or charging the amulets using mantra and his meditation powers. (Google Image)
fdh6bhdj567haebaakba8.jpg

Thai monk initiating Ghost Invitation & Consecration ceremony, making the กุมารทอง or Golden Child to be 'alive'. (Google Image)
242da65b32dd4630510638efeda38381_full.jpeg

I think it is important for laymen to differentiate true monks and false monks. And Pali Tipitaka would be our best compass.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:09 pm ...
Thanks! I had a feeling it was a remnant of some kind of ancient Buddhist folk practice. Surprisingly more canonical than than I thought it would be.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal. The Ajahn mun temple I was at had these spheres but didn't seem to worship them. Probably just there out of tradition.

I actually don't consider kaya siddhis (charging objects with meditation power) to be that bad. Probably not supported by the texts but not out of the realm of possibility of abhinna IMHO. And at least it's meditation related. The practice of trapping spirits in kut mong tong child dolls using black magic is a big no no tho. Especially since, based on how I understand how it's supposed to work, is actually pretty unethical if it did work.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by Dhammanando »

The large iron or stone balls are one of the eight kinds of "marker" (nimitta - in its Vinaya sense) used to delineate a monastic sīmā).

From the BMC''s chapter on sīmās:
Boundary markers

A tied-off territory is defined by its boundary markers. In accordance with the laws of geometry—that a plane can be defined by no fewer than three points—at least three boundary markers are required to define a territory, although more than that is perfectly acceptable. The boundary connecting the markers runs straight from the inner side of one marker to the inner side of the next. The Canon permits eight types of markers: a mountain, a rock, a forest, a tree, a path, a termite’s nest, a river, and water.

[...]

Pasāṇo: rock

A rock used as a boundary marker can extend in size from a large bullock or buffalo down to a stone weighing 32 palas. The Thai translator of the Commentary calculates this as approximately 3 kilograms; a Sri Lankan method of calculation puts it at 8 lbs. As the latter calculation is the stricter of the two, it is the wiser one to follow. A flat stone slab, either lying down or standing up, may also be used as a “rock,” as can an iron ball. If the monastery is built on top of rock slab or ledge, the slab/ledge should not be used as a marker.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0053.html
As for the crystal balls, these weren't very much in evidence when I first came to Thailand in the early 1980's and at that time were uniquely associated with the meditation practice taught at Wat Paknam and Wat Dhammakaya and their respective satellites. That one nowadays sees them all over the place is probably a consequence of Wat Dhammakaya's expansionism
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am
As for the crystal balls, these weren't very much in evidence when I first came to Thailand in the early 1980's and at that time were uniquely associated with the meditation practice taught at Wat Paknam and Wat Dhammakaya and their respective satellites. That one nowadays sees them all over the place is probably a consequence of Wat Dhammakaya's expansionism
Interesting. Yet I see it them at non-Dhammakaya temples as well. Perhaps just a change in normative Thai temple iconography over time. Your explanation does make sense tho. As the crystal balls make sense at temples in the Way Paknam lineage but not so much anywhere else or at least not at temples that don't use kasina meditation. I used to think the stone spheres and crystal balls were related but I guess those r two separate things.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: Significance of spheres in Thai iconography

Post by TRobinson465 »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:07 am The large iron or stone balls are one of the eight kinds of "marker" (nimitta - in its Vinaya sense) used to delineate a monastic sīmā).

From the BMC''s chapter on sīmās:
Boundary markers

A tied-off territory is defined by its boundary markers. In accordance with the laws of geometry—that a plane can be defined by no fewer than three points—at least three boundary markers are required to define a territory, although more than that is perfectly acceptable. The boundary connecting the markers runs straight from the inner side of one marker to the inner side of the next. The Canon permits eight types of markers: a mountain, a rock, a forest, a tree, a path, a termite’s nest, a river, and water.

[...]

Pasāṇo: rock

A rock used as a boundary marker can extend in size from a large bullock or buffalo down to a stone weighing 32 palas. The Thai translator of the Commentary calculates this as approximately 3 kilograms; a Sri Lankan method of calculation puts it at 8 lbs. As the latter calculation is the stricter of the two, it is the wiser one to follow. A flat stone slab, either lying down or standing up, may also be used as a “rock,” as can an iron ball. If the monastery is built on top of rock slab or ledge, the slab/ledge should not be used as a marker.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0053.html
How interesting. Although this doesn't explain why the stones are put on shrines and sometimes worshipped. Perhaps this iconography just changed overtime and the stones became associated with the "wish fulfilling" jewel belief mentioned earlier.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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