rebirth in respect to namarupa

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auto
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rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato wrote:Then Vipassī thought,Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:
‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’‘paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati.
It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is:Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jiyyetha vā miyyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃName and form are conditions for consciousness.
how to understand "This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that"?

is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
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DooDoot
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by DooDoot »

auto wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:00 pm
https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato wrote:Then Vipassī thought,Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:
‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’‘paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati.
It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is:Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jiyyetha vā miyyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃName and form are conditions for consciousness.
how to understand "This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that"?

is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
:goodpost: :bow: the above can be used in my new "rebirth" book :anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps this is explained in the next sentence.
Then Vipassī thought, ‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’ It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: Name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.?
is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
This question is a result of craving. This question alone is a turning back.
This turning back is a result of ignorance (self identification)
It is a good question by the way. In my opinion, the secret of Nibbana is embodied in this question.
Last edited by SarathW on Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:44 am Perhaps this is explained in the next sentence.
Then Vipassī thought, ‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’ It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: Name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.?
is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
This question is a result of craving. This question alone is a turning back.
It appears you have not comprehended this very insightful topic question.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:07 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:44 am Perhaps this is explained in the next sentence.
Then Vipassī thought, ‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’ It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: Name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.?
is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
This question is a result of craving. This question alone is a turning back.
It appears you have not comprehended this very insightful topic question.
I know you think that Nibbana is another consciousness.
Get over it!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:09 am I know you think that Nibbana is another consciousness.
Get over it!
:focus:
SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:44 am Perhaps this is explained in the next sentence.
Then Vipassī thought, ‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’ It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is: Name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.?
The question appears to be asking: "if conscious turns back to name-form then how is consciousness the condition for rebirth?"

In other words, because consciousness turns back, there is no "wheel" of dependent origination. :shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by pegembara »

auto wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:00 pm
https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato wrote:Then Vipassī thought,Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:
‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’‘paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati.
It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is:Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jiyyetha vā miyyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃName and form are conditions for consciousness.
how to understand "This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that"?

is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
The goal is cessation.

Dependent co-arising - vinnana-namarupa ... sides of a coin. No separation.
Dependent cessation - both ceased together.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by pegembara »

On a side note
Then Vipassī thought, ‘When what exists is there old age and death? What is a condition for old age and death?’ Then, through proper attention, Vipassī comprehended with wisdom, ‘When rebirth exists there’s old age and death. Rebirth is a condition for old age and death.’

https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato
Shouldn't rebirth be translated as birth? Because of birth, there is old age and death.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by SarathW »

In other words, because consciousness turns back, there is no "wheel" of dependent origination.
Is this how you understand it?
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:05 am Is this how you understand it?
it is how i understand the question in the OP

in DN 14, it seems consciousness is traced back, not to a past life, but to the present nama-rupa :shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:40 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:05 am Is this how you understand it?
it is how i understand the question in the OP

in DN 14, it seems consciousness is traced back, not to a past life, but to the present nama-rupa :shock:
What is the Pali word used here for "turn back"?
The Sinhalese translation seems incorrect to me.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:49 am The Sinhalese translation seems incorrect to me.
wrong language; wrong forum :focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by auto »

here the namarupa is skipped,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/sujato wrote:Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact.Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.
origination, origination.
https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato wrote:‘Origination, origination.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in Vipassī, the one intent on awakening, regarding teachings not learned before from another.‘Samudayo samudayo’ti kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.
Perhaps namarupa is made on first round and then next round the namarupa is the header(a'la what is the origin of the world) and in this case it is eye consciousness(consciousness gets its name dependent on what it arises on and no namarupa is mentioned).
The sheaves of reeds analogy is a model and model doesn't apply directly.
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

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auto wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:00 pm
https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato wrote:Then Vipassī thought,Atha kho, bhikkhave, vipassissa bodhisattassa etadahosi:
‘This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that.’‘paccudāvattati kho idaṃ viññāṇaṃ nāmarūpamhā, nāparaṃ gacchati.
It is to this extent that one may be reborn, grow old, die, pass away, or reappear. That is:Ettāvatā jāyetha vā jiyyetha vā miyyetha vā cavetha vā upapajjetha vā, yadidaṃName and form are conditions for consciousness.
how to understand "This consciousness turns back from name and form, and doesn’t go beyond that"?

is the turning back a bad thing, it actually should go straight?
It doesn't make sense.
One minute consciousness is dependent on name and form (two sheaths), or dependent on sense base and object.
But the next minute consciousness apparently has a mind of its own, it gets all independent, and turns back on name and form. Or something. :shrug:

Meanwhile, people come up with increasingly convoluted explanations of DO. None of which really make sense.
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Re: rebirth in respect to namarupa

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:00 pm None of which really make sense.
not easy to understand, yet not impossible
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