difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Post Reply
David ceballos
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 am

difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by David ceballos »

Hello again! a hug, I was reading the Mn 118 "anapanasati sutta" and I wanted to ask you about the difference between these terms, because in reality they seemed synonymous to me, but in An 10.60 and Mn 118 itself we understand that it is not so:

1) fading away (virāga)
2) cessation (nirodha)
3) relinquisment (patinissagga)

as I understand that all these term talk about "tanhā" but I do not quite understand the subject, I hope your help :anjali:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11199
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by DooDoot »

David ceballos wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:23 am I wanted to ask you about the difference between these terms
* virāga (fading away/dispassion) is the loss of love; such as losing love for Obama when learning he is a war criminal

* cessation means stopping; such as you no longer support Obama

* patinissagga means 'throwing away/back", which means you renounce any association you previously had with Obama

possibly reading Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's explanation may help
David ceballos wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:23 am An 10.60 and Mn 118
Note the difference:

* In AN 10.60, which uses the word "saññā" (such as "viragasaññā"), refers to using "reflection/thinking" ("paṭisañcikkhati")

* In MN 118, the word "ānupassī" (as in "virāgānupassī"), which means "direct seeing" or "closely watching"

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4852
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:35 am
David ceballos wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:23 am I wanted to ask you about the difference between these terms
* virāga (fading away/dispassion) is the loss of love; such as losing love for Obama when learning he is a war criminal

* cessation means stopping; such as you no longer support Obama

* patinissagga means 'throwing away/back", which means you renounce any association you previously had with Obama

possibly reading Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's explanation may help
David ceballos wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:23 am An 10.60 and Mn 118
Note the difference:

* In AN 10.60, which uses the word "saññā" (such as "viragasaññā"), refers to using "reflection/thinking" ("paṭisañcikkhati")

* In MN 118, the word "ānupassī" (as in "virāgānupassī"), which means "direct seeing" or "closely watching"

:smile:
:goodpost:
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Pulsar
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
I was reading the Mn 118 "anapanasati sutta" and I wanted to ask you about the difference between these terms, because in reality they seemed synonymous to me,
but in An 10.60 and Mn 118 itself we understand that it is not so:
Can you pl copy and paste the passages in the two suttas, which imply it is not so.
1) fading away (virāga)
2) cessation (nirodha)
3) relinquisment (patinissagga)
as I understand that all these term talk about "tanhā" but I do not quite understand the subject,
These definitely refer to the same phenomenon, i.e. dropping or vanishing of all worldly desires. Now synonyms of desire are many.
Fading away when found in the canon always means vanishing of greed, hate and delusion, which could all refer to fading away of desires of all sorts.
  • Cessation means ceasing of underlying tendencies.
It can be experienced at the peaks of Samma Sati and Samma samadhi.
  • Where cessation is found there is relinquishment.
Therefore are they not synonyms?
One cannot have cessation without relinquishment of all that one holds onto, even the Identity view.
Since all worldly desires are associated with suffering, all of the above can be applied to suffering too. i.e. fading away, cessation, and relinquishment of suffering. Get my drift?
What is the subject you do not understand? Tanha?
Tanha quite clearly also means greed, asava, desire, thirst, thrishna, and you will find many more synonyms for this word.
With love and hugs :candle:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11199
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:41 pm * Fading away when found in the canon always means vanishing of greed, hate and delusion, which could all refer to fading away of desires of all sorts.

* Cessation means ceasing of underlying tendencies.

* relinquishment of all that one holds onto, even the Identity view.
:goodpost: :thumbsup: :bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
pegembara
Posts: 2100
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:57 pm
Pulsar wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:41 pm * Fading away when found in the canon always means vanishing of greed, hate and delusion, which could all refer to fading away of desires of all sorts.

* Cessation means ceasing of underlying tendencies.

* relinquishment of all that one holds onto, even the Identity view.
:goodpost: :thumbsup: :bow:
Viraga/fading - All phenomena(sankharas) going, going and ... gone (nirodha/cessation/ending).
Patinissagga/relinquishment - Letting go/giving up those "things"/sankharas to nature.

"All conditioned phenomena are impermanent"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas).
"All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas).
"All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas).

This is the Path to Purity.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4852
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by confusedlayman »

letting go means u let go something

fading away is slowing disappearing of that let go thing

cessation is comepltly gone
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
David ceballos
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 am

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by David ceballos »

Thanks for all your answers ,they were very helpful :anjali:

a doubt, what is the difference between "patinissagga" mentioned in ānāpānasati and "sabbūpadhipatinisagga"? Could you define the latter as well and give examples of types of "upadhi" that encompass it? Thanks, metta
Pulsar wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:41 pm
What is the subject you do not understand? Tanha?
Tanha quite clearly also means greed, asava, desire, thirst, thrishna, and you will find many more synonyms for this word.
With love and hugs :candle:
I was referring to the fact that I did not understand exactly what virāga, nirodha and patinissagga means in Ānāpānasati... or What is "ceasing"? ,what is the object to "relinquish"?
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11199
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by DooDoot »

David ceballos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pm what is the difference between "patinissagga" mentioned in ānāpānasati and "sabbūpadhipatinisagga"?
patinissagga is used in different contexts in the suttas but sabbūpadhipatinisagga found in the definition of Nibbana (eg in MN 26) would be the same as patinissagga found in MN 118.
David ceballos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:50 pmCould you define the latter as well and give examples of types of "upadhi" that encompass it? Thanks, metta
upadhi is any type of attachment or jati, as listed in MN 26:
MN 26 wrote:And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
or SN 12.2 lists four general types of attachment, as follows:
SN 12.2 wrote:These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
SN 12.66 includes these four general types of attachment as "upadhi", as follows:
SN 12.66 wrote:‘This many-faceted, multifarious stress of aging-&-death that arises in the world has acquisition as its cause, acquisition as its origination, acquisition as its source, acquisition as that which brings it into play. When acquisition exists, aging-&-death exists.

‘This many-faceted, multifarious stress of acquisition that arises in the world has craving as its cause, craving as its origination, craving as its source, craving as that which brings it into play. When craving exists, acquisition exists.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_66.html
With metta :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
David ceballos
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 am

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by David ceballos »

Thanks , but is there any diference between "upadhi" and "upādāna" or the are synonyms?
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11199
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by DooDoot »

David ceballos wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:32 pm Thanks , but is there any diference between "upadhi" and "upādāna" or the are synonyms?
upadhi (upa + dhā) are possessions

upadana (upa + ā + dā) is attachment

it appears attachment to a thing will make that thing an upadhi

possibly you can ask this question on the Pali subforum for expert explanation :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
David ceballos
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 am

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by David ceballos »

Thanks :anjali: :thanks: , but are body and mind upadhis?
SarathW
Posts: 16314
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: difference between fading away, cessation and letting go in mn 118

Post by SarathW »

I think this question should be answered using examples and usage. For instance Nirodha Samapathi. Nirodha Satya etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Post Reply