Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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David ceballos
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Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by David ceballos »

hello, I have a doubt in the “dependent origination” it is mentioned that vedana originates tanha, but does this mean that any type of sensation (whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral) gives rise to tanha or only the pleasant ones? if you have suttas where this topic is treated, please send them to … thanks in advance for everything :anjali:
Bundokji
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by Bundokji »

Hello David,

You raised the same question on suttacentral where SN 36.6 was mentioned. Do not you think that this sutta answers your question in a satisfactory manner? if not, why not?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by SarathW »

I have not read SN 36.6 yet.
But my understanding is Arahant experience pleasant ,unpleasant and neutral experience. So every feelings do not create Thanha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Possibly there is a misunderstanding about the word craving.
It also means wanting things to go away, 'to not be', as in 'aversion' that usually applies to unpleasant feelings, sensations, sense impressions.
In this way 'craving' is lust and illwill. Lust for pleasant, rejection of unpleasant.
With regards to neutral feelings. The underlying tendency, or reaction, is ignorance. (see mn148 for example).

Edit add: as Sarath wrote, the Arhat feels the feelings

but does not react with craving or ignorance.
Instead there is true Wisdom
thomaslaw
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by thomaslaw »

Regarding 'feeling produce tanha', see discussion on:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/do ... anha/20930

:buddha1: :reading:
pegembara
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by pegembara »

Pleasant and unpleasant sensations clearly cause a pull towards/push away
A neutral feeling can produce the desire for that peaceful state which is kind of pleasurable in a subtle way. One can become stuck there.
The cessation of feeling is also described as "pleasurable".
Then Pañcakaṅga the carpenter1 went to Ven. Udāyin and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Udāyin, “Venerable Udāyin, how many feelings have been described by the Blessed One?”

“The Blessed One has described three feelings, householder: a feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings described by the Blessed One.”

When this was said, Pañcakaṅga the carpenter said to Ven. Udāyin, “No, Venerable Udāyin, the Blessed One hasn’t described three feelings, he’s described two feelings: a feeling of pleasure & a feeling of pain. As for the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, that has been described by the Blessed One as a peaceful, sublime pleasure.”

But neither was Ven. Udāyin able to convince Pañcakaṅga the carpenter, nor was Pañcakaṅga the carpenter able to convince Ven. Udāyin.

(The Blessed One said,) “Ānanda, it was a genuine exposition that Pañcakaṅga the carpenter didn’t accept from Udāyin the monk, and it was a genuine exposition that Udāyin the monk didn’t accept from Pañcakaṅga the carpenter. There is the exposition whereby I have spoken of two feelings, the exposition whereby I have spoken of three feelings… five… six… eighteen… thirty-six… one hundred and eight feelings.2

“And which, Ānanda, is the other pleasure more excellent than that pleasure and more sublime? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is the other pleasure more excellent than that pleasure and more sublime.

“Now, it’s possible, Ānanda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, ‘Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How is this?’ When they say that, they are to be told, ‘It’s not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.’”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN59.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by Mr. Seek »

I don't recall any Pali texts saying that feelings/sensations automatically produce craving or desire. You can colloquially call them 'causes', sure, but it's more like, 'craving is dependant on feelings/sensations'. In other words, you encounter feelings/sensations, get tangled up in them, and there you have it, desire or craving is now present. To counter this one ought to apply mindfulness, not relishing feelings and sensations, whatever they may be.

Didn't get what ya mean.
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
un8-
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by un8- »

David ceballos wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:36 pm hello, I have a doubt in the “dependent origination” it is mentioned that vedana originates tanha, but does this mean that any type of sensation (whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral) gives rise to tanha or only the pleasant ones? if you have suttas where this topic is treated, please send them to … thanks in advance for everything :anjali:
In my opinion, if there is ignorance and the asavas or anusayas (potential) exist, then yes, all feelings lead to craving. If there is no ignorance or asavas/anusaya then it doesn't lead to craving.

Arahants still have the 3 feelings, but they are detached from them, so it does not result in craving. They see a feeling just as a feeling, and do not go beyond them searching for more feelings.

There is a sutta that says when an average person is hit by a negative feeling, his mind seeks pleasure. The search is therefore craving.
As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it attached.

If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it attached.

If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it attached.

They’re called an uneducated ordinary person who is attached to rebirth, old age, and death, to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress, I say.
Obsessions (anusaya) must result in craving.

Discerning the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape, seems to either prevent or stop an obsession/potential (anusaya)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:57 am [In my opinion, if there is ignorance and the asavas or anusayas (potential) exist, then yes, all feelings lead to craving. If there is no ignorance or asavas/anusaya then it doesn't lead to craving.
That isn’t quite true. The underlying tendencies do not underlie the otherworldly pleasant feelings experienced in Jhana. They don’t underlie all negative feelings either:
“The underlying tendency for greed underlies pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency for repulsion underlies painful feeling. The underlying tendency for ignorance underlies neutral feeling.”

“Do these underlying tendencies always underlie these feelings?”

“No, they do not.”

“What should be given up in regard to each of these three feelings?”

“The underlying tendency to greed should be given up when it comes to pleasant feeling. The underlying tendency to repulsion should be given up when it comes to painful feeling. The underlying tendency to ignorance should be given up when it comes to neutral feeling.”

“Should these underlying tendencies be given up regarding all instances of these feelings?”

“No, not in all instances. Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that. And take a mendicant who reflects: ‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’ Nursing such a longing for the supreme liberations gives rise to sadness due to longing. With this they give up repulsion, and the underlying tendency to repulsion does not lie within that. Take a mendicant who, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. With this they give up ignorance, and the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within that.”
MN 44
"Besides the two categories of paramattha (the real) and paññatti (concept), a third category does not exist. One who is skilful in these two categories does not tremble in the face of other teachings."

Abhidhammāvatāra by Ven. Buddhadatta
un8-
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Re: Does every kind of feeling produce tanha?

Post by un8- »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:28 pm
un8- wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:57 am [In my opinion, if there is ignorance and the asavas or anusayas (potential) exist, then yes, all feelings lead to craving. If there is no ignorance or asavas/anusaya then it doesn't lead to craving.
That isn’t quite true. The underlying tendencies do not underlie the otherworldly pleasant feelings experienced in Jhana. They don’t underlie all negative feelings either:
From my understanding, the feelings in samma Samadhi jhanas are not considered feelings according to dependent origination.


The feelings pleasant, painful, neutral are born of contact, which is born of the 6 senses, which is rooted ignorance. The cause for ignorance is the 5 hindrances, therefore the feelings in dependent origination are not the feelings in jhanas, since the 5 Hindrances are not present. Thus the feelings in Samma Samadhi cannot lead to craving, since they are not born of ignorance-contact.

If it is the wrong samadhi where the 5 hindrances are not overcome and/or one has wrong view, then yes, one is still affected by dependent origination because those feelings are born of ignorance-contact.
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