According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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starter
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According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

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In the Bhabru Rock Edict, King Asoka recommended seven sermons of the Buddha that he says all Buddhists — ordained or not — should listen to and reflect on frequently. Here is the text of the edict:

"His Gracious Majesty, King of Magadha, bows down to the Sangha and — hoping that they are free from disease and living in peace — addresses them as follows: You know well the extent of my reverence and faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Whatever has been said by the Buddha has of course been well-said. But may I be permitted to point out the passages of scripture I have selected that the True Dhamma might last a long time: Vinaya-samukasa, Aliya-vasani, Anagata-bhayani, Muni-gatha, Mauneya-sute, Upatisa-pasine, and the Instructions to Rahula beginning with (the topic of) falsehood, as taught by the Blessed One.

"Reverend Sirs, I would like the reverend bhikkhus and bhikkhunis — as well as the laymen and laywomen — to listen to these passages frequently and to ponder on them.

"For this reason, Reverend Sirs, I am having this enscribed so that they may know of my intention."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... asoka.html

Among one of the recommended seven is AN 5.79:

"... Furthermore, in a future time there will be mendicants who have not developed their physical endurance, ethics, mind, and wisdom. When discourses spoken by the Realized One—deep, profound, transcendent, dealing with emptiness—are being recited they won’t want to listen. They won’t pay attention or apply their minds to understand them, nor will they think those teachings are worth learning and memorizing. But when discourses composed by poets—poetry, with fancy words and phrases, composed by outsiders or spoken by disciples—are being recited they will want to listen. They’ll pay attention and apply their minds to understand them, and they’ll think those teachings are worth learning and memorizing. And that is how corrupt training comes from corrupt teachings, and corrupt teachings come from corrupt training. This is the fourth future peril that has not currently arisen, but will arise in the future …".

Similarly in The Peg Āṇi Sutta (SN 20:7):

"Staying near Sāvatthī. “Monks, there once was a time when the Dasārahas had a large drum called ‘Summoner.’ Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasārahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner’s original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

“In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won’t listen when discourses that are words of the Tathāgata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—are being recited. They won’t lend ear, won’t set their hearts on knowing them, won’t regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works—the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples—are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

“In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathāgata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—will come about.

Based upon these suttas, the original cannon might not have included the discourses spoken by the disciples. We should not blindly trust them.

May the True Dhamma last a long time.
neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

very interesting

this is consistent with mainstream scholarship that believes that Buddhism underwent major changes before Ashoka ;

this is why also per the other tread when Bhikkhu Sujato acknowledges the following :

The Aśokan inscriptions do not mention any schools or any explicit occurrence of schism. When the edicts say
the Sangha has been ‘made unified’, this suggests that there has been some conflict, but it falls short of establishing that
a schism

is even more difficult to believe as in AN 5;79 Asoka seems to indicate that he wanted that what caused the schism and needed his intervention in order to be unified never occurred again...

actually, we saw these patterns again and again, when the original Buddhism went from Nepal to India further substantial changes occurred with new Buddhist traditions that were little by little created ..(seen the magnitude of the Mauryan empire) and the same later on with China, Tibet, Korea, Japan and today with the modern western contemporary Buddhism...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by Ceisiwr »

starter wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:51 am
I don’t think it quite says what you think it says. The warning here is against fraudulent teachings, rather than teachings by monks and nuns in toto.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
starter
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Re: Authenticity of the suttas spoken by disciples

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Based upon the following documented history of the First Council, the discourses ("suttas") spoken by the disciples, such as Ven. Ananda, can't be earlier than the First Council:

Ven. Kassapa questioned Ven. Upali on the Vinaya and made him state where, to whom and concerning what, the Buddha had promulgated the instructions for drawing up the rules for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. It was then Ven. Ananda's turn to inform his colleagues in what place, to which person and with regard to what subject the Buddha had expounded the
suttas.


It's hard to imagine that the "suttas" spoken by e.g. Ven. Ananda (such as MN 52, AN 4.170) were among the canon compiled during the First Council. We need to critical about these "suttas" spoken by the disciples.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Authenticity of the suttas spoken by disciples

Post by Ceisiwr »

starter wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:39 pm It's hard to imagine that the "suttas" spoken by e.g. Ven. Ananda (such as MN 52, AN 4.170) were among the canon compiled during the First Council. We need to critical about these "suttas" spoken by the disciples.
Shouldn’t we be critical of all suttas?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Sobhana
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by Sobhana »

neander wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:33 am this is consistent with mainstream scholarship that believes that Buddhism underwent major changes before Ashoka
Can you please name some scholars and examples of major changes?
neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

Sobhana wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:40 pm
neander wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:33 am this is consistent with mainstream scholarship that believes that Buddhism underwent major changes before Ashoka
Can you please name some scholars and examples of major changes?
Pretty much all, it is sufficient to google Buddhist Schism, Early rifts in Buddhism and so on.


Abstract from Prof Prebish 's paper

Utilizing the research of La Vallee Poussin, R. O. Franke, Jean Przyluski, M. Hofinger, Paul Demieville, Andre Bareau, and Nalinaksha Dutt, as well as the primary texts, it becomes apparent that while the first council (at Rajagrha) is almost certainly not a historic event, the second council (at Vaisali) and the third (at Pataliputra) have a firm historical basis. Further, one finds evidence for the supposition that a "second" second council was held (at Pataliputra, under the Nandin ruler Mahapadma) shortly after the Vaisali council. It is likely that the Buddhist sectarian movement begins at this "second" second council with the separation of the Sthaviras and Mahasamghikas, rather than, as traditionally accepted, at the Vaisali council

neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

if one googles the presectarian wikipedia page one can find that during Early Buddhism:

Pre-sectarian Buddhism may have included or incorporated other Śramaṇic schools of thought, as well as Vedic and Jain ideas and practices.


According to Schmithausen, three positions held by scholars of Buddhism can be distinguished regarding the possibility to extract the earliest Buddhism from the Early Buddhist Texts

"Stress on the fundamental homogeneity and substantial authenticity of at least a considerable part of the Nikayic materials;"
"Skepticism with regard to the possibility of retrieving the doctrine of earliest Buddhism;
"Cautious optimism in this respect.


The number, dates and depth of the contaminations/changes/assimilations that occurred varies from scholar to scholar, it is also impossible to quantify and detail the number of changes as we do not have any original record going back to the historical Buddha as a reference but most agree we do not have a 100% clear picture...
Sobhana
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by Sobhana »

neander wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:48 pm Pretty much all ...
So am I to assume, that you can't back up your claim or you're not willing so far? But it's okay.
neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

in relation to the authenticity of the Buddhist scripture, you can have a look at this conference held in a Zen monastery by prof Faure (please note that the audience is made up of Zen monks and cannot be fooled around easily on these matters)



(Bronkhorst Early Buddhist meditation)
Put very briefly, the teaching of the Buddha as presented in the early canon contains a number of contradictions. There are views and practices that are sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected

(Buddhism J.W.De Jong) “we must accept the fact there are divergences and contradictions in the Buddhist scriptures”

Schopen in Bones Stones and Buddhist Monks reckons us that Buddhist archeology and epigraphy tells us a different narrative from the "the world-renouncing religion" of the Pali text and so on

I found that only ordained scholars like Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali in their "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" are able to find a full coherence in the early Buddhist texts which is fine seen their choice of life...

Please note that I am not a scholar and also my knowledge of Buddhism is quite limited but very few things are adding up coherently in early Buddhism even without too much investigation but only using an open mind and some passion for these subjects, please also note that in this era we are only at the beginning of revising the old traditions as the web velocity is making Buddhist studies progress faster than before even if the money allocated to these kinds of subject is minimal
starter
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Re: Authenticity of the suttas spoken by disciples

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The Assessment of Textual Authenticity in Buddhism, by Étienne Lamotte
https://journal.equinoxpub.com/BSR/arti ... 6227/18637:
Mahasanghikas vinaya (T 1425): “The Dhamma is either what the Buddha proclaimed, or what he approved with his seal.
The Pali vinaya and the Dharmaguptas (T1428) added two more: what the sages and the gods proclaimed.
The Sarvastivadin vinaya (T 1435) further added what the apparational beings proclaimed.

While false suttas spoken by disciples could falsely make up the Buddha's approval, at least those suttas spoken by disciples without the Buddha's approval should not be blindly trusted as the Dhamma.
dharmacorps
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by dharmacorps »

This is a warning about counterfeit dhamma, and specifically warning that it could come from any quarter- poets, disciples, etc. True dhamma needs to be verfied, regardless of source.
Ontheway
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by Ontheway »

More reason for me not to listen blindly to those modern contemporary monks.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

due to time constraints I will finish my citations now:


Johannes Bronkhorst

Conference: Buddhist Meditation from Ancient India to Modern Asia

Put very briefly, the teaching of the Buddha as presented in the early canon contains a number of contradictions. There are views and practices that are sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected. (....) It turns out that among the views and practices that are sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected in the Buddhist canon many are also found in those other religious movements. We are therefore entitled to suspect that Buddhism, in the course of its development but before the final redaction of its early canon, underwent the influence of those movements and borrowed some of their views and practices


BUDDHISM IN THE SHADOW OF BRAHMANISM


It follows that the Buddha made a distinction between his own teaching (...) However, not all of these were taught by the Buddha. A number of them can be identified as really belonging to other religious currents that existed in Greater
Magadha and with which Buddhism was in competition.It is easy to understand how such non-buddhist practices could find theirway into the buddhist canon. The early converts to Buddhism were drawn fromGreater Magadha, some of them from religious currents such as Jainism and the ascetic mode of life primarily followed by the Jainas.
neander
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Re: According to AN 5.79 we should not listen to the discourses spoken by disciples

Post by neander »

neander wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:22 pm due to time constraints I will finish my citations now:


Johannes Bronkhorst

Conference: Buddhist Meditation from Ancient India to Modern Asia

Put very briefly, the teaching of the Buddha as presented in the early canon contains a number of contradictions. There are views and practices that are sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected. (....) It turns out that among the views and practices that are sometimes accepted and sometimes rejected in the Buddhist canon many are also found in those other religious movements. We are therefore entitled to suspect that Buddhism, in the course of its development but before the final redaction of its early canon, underwent the influence of those movements and borrowed some of their views and practices



BUDDHISM IN THE SHADOW OF BRAHMANISM


It follows that the Buddha made a distinction between his own teaching (...) However, not all of these were taught by the Buddha. A number of them can be identified as really belonging to other religious currents that existed in Greater
Magadha and with which Buddhism was in competition.It is easy to understand how such non-buddhist practices could find theirway into the buddhist canon. The early converts to Buddhism were drawn fromGreater Magadha, some of them from religious currents such as Jainism and the ascetic mode of life primarily followed by the Jainas.

Oskar von Hinüber

There is no doubt that the Buddha formulated his teaching in oral instruction to his immediate pupils. The extent of this corpus of original Buddhist texts is as unknown as is its actual shape during the days of the Buddha. These texts were learnt by heart, transmitted, and to an unknown, but probably fairly large extent shaped and reshaped by those who handed them down, and they went thus through a considerable transformation before they reached the stage of Pāli and became codified as the canon of the Theravāda school written down for the first time during the reign of Vaṭṭagāmaṇī
Abhaya (89-77 B.C.), or that of true Buddhist Sanskrit as used by the Mahāsāṃghikalokottaravāda school, Gāndhārī
or even Paiśācī
 and other languages now lost

and so on...I will not post any other as there is plenty available on line so it is up to each of us to test and find for works for him..

Sutra of Dense Array, goes: “O monks, just as a goldsmith tests gold by rubbing, burning, and cutting before buying it, so too, you should examine my words before accepting them, and not just out of respect for me.”
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