All Exists

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Pondera
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Re: All Exists

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:36 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:32 am ...
Once again that relates to not vexing oneself by trying to work out what is the result of kamma, rather than how it works.
Sigh…
And tradition has it that those bhikkhus only who know Abhidhamma are true preachers of the Dhamma; the rest, though they speak on the Dhamma, are not preachers thereof. And why? They, in speaking on the Dhamma, confuse the different kinds of Kamma and of its results, the distinction between mind and matter, and the different kinds of states. The students of Abhidhamma do not thus get confused; hence a bhikkhu who knows Abhidhamma, whether he preaches the Dhamma or not, will be able to answer questions whenever asked. He alone, therefore, is a true preacher of the Dhamma.
- The Expositor (Atthasālinī).
The basis of the “Expositor” claiming abhidammikas as more qualified to teach the dhamma is outlined above.

Again, the point I made was that it is ironic because the Buddha told us to avoid all such conjecture.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Pondera
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Re: All Exists

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:36 am
Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:32 am ...
Once again that relates to not vexing oneself by trying to work out what is the result of kamma, rather than how it works.
Once again, your question is irrelevant to the path. The Buddha did not teach the inner workings of kamma.

See the following: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Such is the teaching of the Niganthas. And, such being the teaching of the Niganthas, ten legitimate deductions can be drawn that give grounds for censuring them.

(1) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on what was done in the past, then obviously the Niganthas have done bad things in the past, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.

(2) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on the creative act of a supreme god, then obviously the Niganthas have been created by an evil supreme god, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.

(3) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on sheer luck, then obviously the Niganthas have evil luck, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.

(4) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on birth, then obviously the Niganthas have had an evil birth, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.

(5) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on efforts in the here-&-now, then obviously the Niganthas have evil efforts in the here-&-now, which is why they now feel such fierce, sharp, racking pains.

(6) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on what was done in the past, the Niganthas deserve censure. Even if not, they still deserve censure.

(7) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on the creative act of a supreme god, the Niganthas deserve censure. Even if not, they still deserve censure.

(8) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on sheer luck, the Niganthas deserve censure. Even if not, they still deserve censure.

(9) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on birth, the Niganthas deserve censure. Even if not, they still deserve censure.

(10) "If beings experience pleasure & pain based on efforts in the here-&-now, the Niganthas deserve censure. Even if not, they still deserve censure.

"Such is the teaching of the Niganthas, monks. And, such being the teaching of the Niganthas, these ten legitimate deductions can be drawn that give grounds for censuring them. This is how striving is fruitless, how exertion is fruitless.
The Buddha outlined 10 (edit: “five” possible mechanisms)for kamma and qualified all five with an “if” (one of those, mind you, was the existence of a supreme god - probably one of the few times any such being is ever discussed in the suttas).

Again. Pick whichever one you like. It’s irrelevant to faith; joy; rapture; tranquility; sukha; samadhi; knowledge and vision of things as they really are; disenchantment; dispassion; release; knowledge and vision of release.

Again. The abhidamma conflates issues that need not be conflated. It is the work of sophists.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:43 am ...
The sutta is talking about trying to figure out what is or is not the result of kamma right now, rather then Ven. Buddhaghosa who is referring to different types of kamma and their results, its process in rebirth etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:25 am I won't lie. I find it curious that you can say "yes" to the four noble truths not being ultimately true. I suppose in the end I just don't share your metric of "possessed of sabhāva = ultimately true," so it makes sense that I might find the conclusion unjustified.
Earlier I said that what makes a sabhāva-dhamma is it's ability to act as a condition. That was more of a Vaibhāṣika definition rather than a Theravādin once since in Theravāda a concept can be a condition. For example, the nimitta is a concept but it can be a condition for Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Circling back to the four noble truths not being ultimately true, that indicates that the entirety of this statement cannot be ultimately true either:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found <-- first truth
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there <-- second truth
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it <-- third truth
The path is, but no traveller on it is seen <-- fourth truth

These do not point to substantial entities. More accurately (and eccentrically tbh), only one of them does from the view you argue from, randomly the third element of the list. All the other objects marked with "atthi" here do not "actually exist" and are not ultimately true statements as you have outlined.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:22 pm Circling back to the four noble truths not being ultimately true, that indicates that the entirety of this statement cannot be ultimately true either:

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found <-- first truth
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there <-- second truth
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it <-- third truth
The path is, but no traveller on it is seen <-- fourth truth

These do not point to substantial entities. More accurately (and eccentrically tbh), only one of them does from the view you argue from, randomly the third element of the list. All the other objects marked with "atthi" here do not "actually exist" and are not ultimately true statements as you have outlined.
Suffering would be a characteristic of conditioned dhammas which do exist. Deeds would be kamma, which does exist. Nibbāna exists as do the various dhammas that make up the path, bar livelihood.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

And therefore 3 of 4 statements are conventional and are not ultimately true. The only ultimately true statement of the 4 is "nibbānam atthi" according to you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

We can open the matter up to the deeds also being ultimately true entities to posit, complete with their own svabhāvas and svalakṣaṇas, then we have 50% of Ven Buddhaghosa's quatrain as ultimately true.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:04 pm We can open the matter up to the deeds also being ultimately true entities to posit, complete with their own svabhāvas and svalakṣaṇas, then we have 50% of Ven Buddhaghosa's quatrain as ultimately true.
I've been looking at the relevant section of the Visuddhimagga again. There is a way it can be seen as 100%:
86. 10. As to division of content: all states excepting craving and states free from cankers are included in the truth of suffering. The thirty-six modes of behaviour of craving24 are included in the truth of origin. The truth of cessation is unmixed. As regards the truth of the path: the heading of right view includes the fourth road to power consisting in inquiry, the understanding faculty, the understanding power, and the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor. The term right thinking includes the three kinds of applied thought beginning with that of renunciation (D III 215). The term right speech includes the four kinds of good verbal conduct (A II 131). The term right action includes the three kinds of good bodily conduct (cf. M I 287). The heading right livelihood includes fewness of wishes and contentment. Or all these [three] constitute the virtue loved by Noble Ones, and the virtue loved by Noble Ones has to be embraced by the hand of faith consequently the faith faculty, the faith power, and the road to power consisting in zeal are included because of the presence of these [three]. The term right effort includes fourfold right endeavour, the energy faculty, energy power, and energy enlightenment factor. The term right mindfulness includes the fourfold foundation of mindfulness, the mindfulness faculty, the mindfulness power, and the mindfulness enlightenment factor. The term right concentration includes the three kinds of concentration beginning with that accompanied by applied and sustained thought (D III 219), consciousness concentration, the concentration faculty, [512] the concentration power, and the enlightenment factors of happiness, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity.
CHAPTER XVI The Faculties and Truths
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'll have to reply in more detail later, but having only skimmed your quote, it looks like a formation of your post four posts ago with new wordings and/or new elements comprising "suffering" and "the path" etc. Your earlier definitions of "what ultimately is" largely excluded composite entities synthesized from empirically-observable constituent elements, i.e. "concepts" synthesized from "parts," like "time" from "the moments" and "dependent origination" from "the dependently originated." This still leaves at least two material statements from Ven Buddhaghosa in his quatrain as not ultimately true.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:35 pm I'll have to reply in more detail later, but having only skimmed your quote, it looks like a formation of your post four posts ago with new wordings and/or new elements comprising "suffering" and "the path" etc. Your earlier definitions of "what ultimately is" largely excluded composite entities synthesized from empirically-observable constituent elements, i.e. "concepts" synthesized from "parts," like "time" from "the moments" and "dependent origination" from "the dependently originated." This still leaves at least two material statements from Ven Buddhaghosa in his quatrain as not ultimately true.
1st Truth refers to all realities which are intrinsically suffering.

2nd Truth includes various forms of craving.

3rd Truth refers to Nibbāna

4th Truth refers to the ultimate realities which make up the path.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Summarizing what you've given, we have 3 sets of definitions along with the quatrain as it appears in the source text. I am going to split the quatrain into 8 elements.

Quatrain:
1. mere suffering exists
2. no sufferer is found
3. the deeds are
4. no doer of the deeds is there
5. Nibbāna is
6. not the man that enters it
7. the path is
8. no traveller on it is seen

Even with all of the corrections or clarifications, even with the caveats you've brought forth, elements 7 and 1 are not ultimately true based on your reasoning presented in this thread and also based on other argumentation you've given at different times on the board -- particularly based on how you've been arguing that we should read the term "atthi," particularly when "atthi" is used in conjunction with "nibbana." Now we've both "atthi nibbuti" and "maggam atthi." Why should we treat the first "atthi" specially and the second differently?

Ven Buddhaghosa does not need to be an "ultimate speaker." Not every character that flows out of whatever ancient kind of pen/stylus he was using need be ultimate truth in the highest sense of "what is true," or the "truest true." However, I think that this quatrain is supposed to be a summation of the ultimate, hence its reliance on mereological reals (i.e. "deeds" versus "arising," "origination," or even "dependent origination") instead of the larger concepts that we synthesize from them. With your caveats we have

One:
1. a mere characteristic of conditioned dhammas exists
2. ???
3. the deeds are
4. no doer of the deeds is there
5. Nibbāna is
6. not the man that enters it
7. the various dhammas that make up the path are
8. no traveller on [them???] is seen

How do you fill in the blanks with ??? here to make it more complete?

Two:
1. states, excepting craving and states free from cankers, exist
2. no one perceives them
3. thirty-six modes of behaviour of craving are
4. no one behaving so is found
5. (the Nibbāna part of the quatrain can stay identical)
6. (etc.)
7. three kinds of good bodily conduct, four kinds of good verbal conduct, three kinds of good bodily conduct, fewness of wishes and contentment, the faith faculty & its power etc., fourfold right endeavour, the fourfold foundation of mindfulness, the three kinds of concentration beginning with that accompanied by applied and sustained thought etc.
8. no cultivator of these things is seen

Three:
1. all realities which are intrinsically suffering exist
2. no sufferer is found
3. various forms of craving are
4. no craver of the craving is there
5. Nibbāna is
6. not the man that enters it
7. ultimate realities which make up the path are
8. no one experiences them

If Ven Buddhaghosa's quatrain were ultimately true, it would look more like Options 2 or 3. As it is, Ven Buddhaghosa says "the path is" as he says "Nibbāna is." That is not "ultimately true" according to how you have spun the ultimate truth.

Now, it needn't be ultimately true in order to be true. Ultimate truth is the truest truth that is always true and never false. It is true that my hair is red, but not ultimately so, because my hair will go grey and eventually my body will rot and my hair will likely fall out and also rot and no longer be identifiable as "hair" necessarily. That I have red hair is not an ultimate truth, but is true enough for our purposes going about daily life.

Ven Buddhaghosa's famous quatrain, based on how you've framed Theravadin ultimate truth, is no more ultimately true than that my hair is red. His element of "the path is" is a hypostatization of a concept into an ultimately reality, given how you've defined those terms. It is necessarily provisional and conventional, borrowing from the ways of the world to find its phrasing. That does not mean it is wrong, false, etc., but it does mean that it is not truth in its truest sense. Ven Bugghaghosa is not dealing strictly with mereological reals here despite his substitution of "arising" or even "dependent co-arising" for the discreet concrete things, the mereological reals, that cause the arising -- the "karmas."

However, does this sit right? I suspect that quatrain is supposed to be a summation of the four noble truths from the ultimate perspective, as I've already said, but it falls short of the metrics you've given for determining your "ultimates."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: All Exists

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:18 pm ...
I would read it as option 3
1. all realities which are intrinsically suffering exist
2. no sufferer is found
3. various forms of craving are
4. no craver of the craving is there
5. Nibbāna is
6. not the man that enters it
7. ultimate realities which make up the path are
8. no one experiences them
It's perfectly acceptable to say suffering exists if by that we understand it to mean conditioned dhammas exist. To say suffering exists is to say conditioned dhammas exist and vice versa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: All Exists

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:33 pmIt's perfectly acceptable to say suffering exists if by that we understand it to mean conditioned dhammas exist. To say suffering exists is to say conditioned dhammas exist and vice versa.
It may be "perfectly acceptable" to say that suffering exists, but not "ultimately true" by your earlier metrics:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:35 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:58 amSo what about the noble truth of the origin of suffering? Is that not ultimately true? If the second noble truth is ultimately true and (anuloma) paṭiccasamuppāda is not ultimately true, how do you differentiate?
Specific instances of craving are ultimately true, but there is no ultimate truth of "The Truth of Craving". There is no abstract "Truth of Suffering", ultimately speaking.
"I've bolded for emphasis," he said, redundantly. This intersects with here in another thread.

In that other thread, you claim, unless I'm mistaken, that each noble truth is a distinct dhamma. How is that consonant with the material from this thread?

Like I said before, the quatrain from Ven Buddhaghosa doesn't have to be "ultimately true." He doesn't need to only write verse in the modalities of ultimate reality to write usefully. But I do suspect that the quatrain might be treated as "ultimately true" in some circles of Theravāda. That would problematize the way you've been framing "ultimate truth" here.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ronnymarsh
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Re: All Exists

Post by ronnymarsh »

The thing is not so simple, and to understand it, one must have access to the primary sources of sarvastivada thought, which exist in the abidharma of the Chinese canon.

I am not a great connoisseur, but I know that first of all it is necessary to know what the sarvastivadin meant by "dharmas", and almost never the Abidharmas have the same definitions as the Suttas/Sutras.

In the Suttas/Sutras, the dharmas are the ayatanas, skandhas and dhatus:
There are six ayatanas (in terms of subject and object): seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and reasoning; five skandhas: form, sensation, perception, volition, and consciousness; and twelve dhatus: six outer ayatanas, six inner ayatanas and six consciousnesses.

But apparently Nibbana, for example, is not a dharma in the Suttas/Sutras.

Judging only from the Sutras/Suttas that do not imply that Nibbana is a dhamma, then all dharmas are impermanent, suffering and not-self, therefore they cannot exist in the three tenses.

However, when we go to Abidhamma/Abidharma, Nibbana is clearly considered a dhamma, in addition to several other elements. The sarvastivadins considered 100 elements as dharmas.

Thus, it is not possible to talk about the existence of the dhammas in the three tenses based only on the Sutras, but it is entirely possible based on a specific systematization of the Dharma.

However, the position of the sarvastivadas is valid through a difficulty that is encountered when thinking only in terms of sutras: if the dhammas (sense organs, sense objects and results of contact between the two) only have a uniquely momentary existence, as is it possible that there is memory and learning?

When someone, for example, eats a lemon and comes into contact with its bitter taste, he usually has an experience of aversion, and the result of that experience somehow continues, for when he sees a lemon he recognizes that the lemon is sour. The awareness generated by that experience apparently continued in some way and did not disappear completely.

The problem with this position of the sarvastivadins is that they place continuity as a characteristic of the dhammas themselves, which can generate the idea of ​​an Atta.

The answer offered by the Theravadins and Yogacarins is better by assuming that continuity is possible through a continuous "base" rather than through all dhammas.

Bavangha or Alaya functions as a conditioned dhamma, which arises through causes and conditions. As long as the conditions for its existence are true, its existence is true.

This condition is the experience and the result (karma) of it. When there is contact, a dhamma arises, which continues to exist as long as the conditions exist for it to exist. The condition for the existence of karma is this base: bavangha/alaya.

Bavangha/Alaya only exists because of karma, just as karma only exists because of Alaya, in a relationship of mutual dependence.

When the experience and accumulation of karma ceases, the base also ceases, and "extinction" arises.

This is the best way to reconcile what the Sutras/Suttas teach with the problem of continuity.
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