Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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DooDoot
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Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by DooDoot »

Dear DW Early Buddhism forum

I quickly browsed Bhikkhu Thanissaro's PDF called Paradox of Becoming, where the Venerable says:
Like bhava, “non-becoming”—vibhava—is a term that the Buddha does not define. It is related to the verb vibhavati, which means to stop becoming, to stop being, to go out of existence
Thus craving for non-becoming would mean a desire for something already existing to perish or be destroyed.
The central paradox of becoming is also evident in the second noble truth, where one of the three forms of craving leading to becoming is craving for non-becoming—the ending of what has come to be.
This poses a practical challenge for any attempt to put an end to becoming. Many writers have tried to resolve this paradox by defining non-becoming in such a way that the desire for Unbinding (nibbana) would not fall into that category.
However, the Buddha himself taught a strategic resolution to this paradox, in which the four noble truth—the path to the end of suffering—involves creating a type of becoming where the mind is so steady and alert that it can simply allow what has come into being to pass away of its own accord, thus avoiding the twin dangers of craving for becoming or for non-becoming
Some questions that arose in relation to the above:

1. Do the suttas not define "bhava" and "vibhava"?

2. Is "non-becoming" an accurate translation of "vibhava"?

3. Is there really a "paradox" in the 2nd noble truth?

4. What is meant by "the ending of what has come to be"? Must this involve "vibhava"?

5. Can the desire for Nibbana not be bhava or vibhava?

6. Did the Buddha himself really teach a Path of "becoming", i.e., do the suttas say a mind so steady and alert is a type of "becoming"?

7. What do we think "bhava" & "vibhava" are & mean?

Please discuss. :thanks: :)
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by asahi »

FYI According to the parallel there are only craving for Sensuality and craving for Becoming .
:smile:


The Great Discourse on Causality
(大因)

MA 97

「阿難!欲愛及有愛,此二法因覺、緣覺致來。阿難!若有問者:『覺有緣耶?』當如是答:『覺亦有緣。』若有問者:『覺有何緣?』當如是答:『緣更樂也。』
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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asahi wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:50 pm FYI According to the parallel there are only craving for Sensuality and craving for Becoming .
:smile:
If true, this is why parallel written many hundreds of years after the Buddha are ignored by most.
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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Another interesting or questionable paragraph:
Bhava is included in a variety of lists describing mental states that an arahant—a fully awakened person—has overcome. Thus it is one of the three asavas, or effluents; one of the four oghas, or floods; one of the four yogas, or
burdens; and one of the seven anusayas, or obsessions. Although it does not occur in the standard list of ten sanyojanas, or fetters, a standard formula describing the arahant states that he/she has “destroyed the fetter :roll: of becoming.” Although these lists clearly indicate that bhava is regarded as something negative that has to be overcome for the sake of Awakening, they give no idea of what the term actually means
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:54 am Some questions that arose in relation to the above:

1. Do the suttas not define "bhava" and "vibhava"?
AN 3.76 defines "bhava". Suttas such as Iti 49 define "vibhava" as including a self-view.
2. Is "non-becoming" an accurate translation of "vibhava"?
Since vibhava per Iti 49 always involves the view of "self", vibhava is probably translated as akin to "self-destruction".
3. Is there really a "paradox" in the 2nd noble truth?
No. All forms of craving in the 2nd noble truth lead to attachment or self-view. Therefore, when self-view is abandoned, the Path arises. There is no need to engage in "self-destruction" in the Path because there is no real self to destroy.
4. What is meant by "the ending of what has come to be"? Must this involve "vibhava"?
No. Iti 49 refers the enlightened practise for cessation of what has come to be. This is unrelated to vibhava. Iti 49 says:
And how do those with vision see?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, cakkhumanto passanti?

It’s when a mendicant sees what has come to be as having come to be.
Idha bhikkhu bhūtaṁ bhūtato passati;

Seeing this, they are practicing for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding what has come to be.
bhūtaṁ bhūtato disvā bhūtassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipanno hoti.

That is how those with vision see.”
Evaṁ kho, bhikkhave, cakkhumanto passantī”ti.


https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/sujato
:alien:
5. Can the desire for Nibbana not be bhava or vibhava?
Yes. Chanda Iddhipada is not tanha, bhava or vibhava.
6. Did the Buddha himself really teach a Path of "becoming", i.e., do the suttas say a mind so steady and alert is a type of "becoming"?
No. MN 117 says the Path is without asava. Becoming is an asava. Therefore, it appears the Path is not a type of becoming, as Thanissaro and his Forest Gurus suggest. Ajahn Buddhadasa said, refuting the ideas of Thanissaro and his Village Gurus:
As for samadhi, an empty mind is the supreme samadhi, the supremely focused firmness of mind. The straining and striving sort of samadhi isn't the real thing and the samadhi which aims at anything other than non-clinging to the five khandas is micchasamadhi (wrong or perverted samadhi). You should be aware that there is both micchasamadhi and sammasamadhi (right or correct samadhi). Only the mind that is empty of grasping at and clinging to 'I' and 'mine' can have the true and perfect stability of sammasamadhi. One who has an empty mind has correct samadhi.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Bhikk ... o_Tree.htm
Bhava is included in a variety of lists describing mental states that an arahant—a fully awakened person—has overcome. Thus it is one of the three asavas, or effluent. However, does not occur in the standard list of ten sanyojana, or fetters because every fetter is a basis for becoming. That is why there is a sutta that say, about the Stream-Enterer, who has ended 3 fetters, there is no 8th becoming. Thus, the standard formula describing the arahant states that he/she has “destroyed the fetters [plural] of becoming.” Contrary to Thanissaro's bizarre translation, there appears no such thing as the singular "fetter of becoming". :alien: :smile:
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:36 pm ......
Pls refer to below sutta , as stated craving for sensuality , fine realm and becoming . It appears this inline with the parallel .
Sensuality craving - sensuality becoming
Fine form craving - fine form becoming
Formless craving - formless becoming

The Perception of Impermanence
Aniccasaññāsutta
SN 22.102

“Mendicants, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated it eliminates all desire for sensual pleasures, for rebirth in the realm of luminous form, and for rebirth in a future life. It eliminates all ignorance and eradicates all conceit ‘I am’.

“Aniccasaññā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā sabbaṁ kāmarāgaṁ pariyādiyati, sabbaṁ rūparāgaṁ pariyādiyati, sabbaṁ bhavarāgaṁ pariyādiyati, sabbaṁ avijjaṁ pariyādiyati, sabbaṁ asmimānaṁ samūhanati.
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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asahi wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:39 am Pls refer to below sutta , as stated craving for sensuality , fine realm and becoming . It appears this inline with the parallel .
Sensuality craving - sensuality becoming
Fine form craving - fine form becoming
Formless craving - formless becoming
Irrelevant to the topic. Also, we have discussed this before, namely, vibhava is a form of bhava.

:focus:
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by asahi »

If bhava already covers vibhava then to list it out is a superfluous . :thinking:
In the parallel there are mostly translated as Formless Tanha , only 1 or 2 DA sutta and 1 EA sutta shows as vibhava tanha . The other SA and MA sutta all translated as Formless Tanha . Imo Vibhava if it werent a mistake then it should fall under "Wrong View" clinging (ditthupadana) group and self-doctrine clinging (attavadupadana) group which refers to wanting to Annihilate . It should not described as Tanha at all . If it was a mistake , then it suppose or should be meant for to get rid of the "form" to become formless .

Ps . Anyway , disagreement is fine . However I find that vibhava tanha probably is not tanha at all or perhaps not ?
:roll:
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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asahi wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:55 am Ps . Anyway , disagreement is fine . However I find that vibhava tanha is not tanha at all .
Since vibhava is in the 2nd noble truth, obviously the above is wrong. Since the suttas say in many places to abandon both bhava & vibhava (example, MN 140), obviously the above is wrong.

:focus:
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:00 am
asahi wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:55 am Ps . Anyway , disagreement is fine . However I find that vibhava tanha is not tanha at all .
Since vibhava is in the 2nd noble truth, obviously the above is wrong. Since the suttas say in many places to abandon both bhava & vibhava (example, MN 140), obviously the above is wrong.

:focus:
:rolleye:

Vibhava if refers to wanting to exterminate which is a conceiving .Therefore , it is an clinging or upadana .

:smile:

The Analysis of the Elements
Dhātuvibhaṅgasutta
MN 140

“Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace.
Last edited by asahi on Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by un8- »

Hello,

You may be interested in Ven Bodhesako's essay on Vibhava here, he compares different interpretations - https://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesa ... d-craving/

excerpt:


Let us proceed to vibhava. This word is usually translated as ‘non-being’. But the negative participle in Pali is ‘a‘, and not ‘vi‘; we might expect, therefore, if we were to speak of non-being in the sense of being totally non-existent, to find the word abhava rather than vibhava; but in fact nowhere in the Suttas does abhava occur in opposition to bhava. The word is certainly possible: it is used in the Commentaries[2] in the sense of non-existence or annihilation; and there are words similar to abhava to be found — not opposed to bhava — in the Suttas themselves,[3] so the construction seems to be etymologically unobjectionable. Furthermore, when the non-existence of something is asserted — as, e.g., the non-existence of lobha, dosa, and moha in the arahat — the term vibhava is never used in connection with such a description.

Why, then, we may ask, does abhava not occur? And what, then, is the distinction between it and vibhava? The prefix ‘vi‘ has the meaning of ‘apart from’, or ‘separation’, which is close to (i.e. is not) a negation.[4] Etymologically, then, vibhava would seem to mean ‘apart from bhava‘, apart from being, apart from existence, apart from presence: dis-presence. And if something is apart from presence does not this mean that it is absent? And is not absence similar to (i.e. not the same as) non-existence? Could it not be, then, that the Sutta usage of vibhava rather than abhava in this formal definition is due neither to careless choice of words nor to a quirk of language but, rather, that it is a careful distinction made on ontological rather than etymological grounds? Let us investigate and see if this is so.
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

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un8- wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:58 am Hello,

You may be interested in Ven Bodhesako's essay on Vibhava here, he compares different interpretations - https://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesa ... d-craving/
Thank you. It appears the suttas are clear on the meaning of "vibhava", such as:
Some, becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with existence, delight in ending existence:

Bhaveneva kho paneke aṭṭīyamānā harāyamānā jigucchamānā vibhavaṁ abhinandanti—

‘When this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death:

yato kira, bho, ayaṁ attā kāyassa bhedā paraṁ maraṇā ucchijjati vinassati na hoti paraṁ maraṇā

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/sujato
Or:
They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṁ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
Thus vibhava revolves around self-view & grasping.

In the suttas, the ending of bhava & vibhava via the Path appear to be called bhava-nirodha:
Continued existence originates from grasping. Continued existence ceases when grasping ceases. The practice that leads to the cessation of continued existence is simply this noble eightfold path …”

Upādānasamudayā bhavasamudayo, upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho, ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo bhavanirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṁ—
sammādiṭṭhi …pe… sammāsamādhi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato
Kind regards :smile:
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by un8- »

(typing from phone, it's hard to format quotes, so I'll just type here)

According to ven Bodhesako's interpretation

"Some, becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with existence, delight in ending existence:"

would be

"Some, becoming horrified, repelled, and disgusted with what is present, delight in what is absent"

i.e. They don't like what they're currently experiencing (pain, unpleasantness) so they seek an experience which is currently absent. E.g. someone currently in severe pain from an illness, seeking and imagining an experience from a time when they were not in severe pain, or perhaps even annihilation, just no experience at all. As in they're trying to escape the current horrific situation, with an absent imagined situation which is craving for the future, past, or a different present situation.
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by asahi »

Bhava is continuing existence or re-becoming , how then vibhava which is discontinuing existence group under bhava namely kama bhava , rupa bhava , arupa bhava ? :shrug:
Vibhava the most is a "wish to be nothing" not an actual state of becoming or continued existence .
How can one say bhava nirodha includes bhava and vibhava at all ? :roll:
This really doesnt make sense .
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Re: Thanissaro: Is there a 'paradox of becoming'?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:44 pm Another interesting or questionable paragraph:
Bhava is included in a variety of lists describing mental states that an arahant—a fully awakened person—has overcome. Thus it is one of the three asavas, or effluents; one of the four oghas, or floods; one of the four yogas, or
burdens; and one of the seven anusayas, or obsessions. Although it does not occur in the standard list of ten sanyojanas, or fetters, a standard formula describing the arahant states that he/she has “destroyed the fetter :roll: of becoming.” Although these lists clearly indicate that bhava is regarded as something negative that has to be overcome for the sake of Awakening, they give no idea of what the term actually means
desire for non becoming is also desire for becoming non becoming
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