Worldly Dhammas

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Worldly Dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Could anyone be so kind as to have a go at translating this short text?

如是我聞:

一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤 獨園。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「世人為卑下業, 種種求財活命,而得巨富,世人皆知。如世 人之所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我 異於世人。

「諸比丘!譬如一器,有一處人,名 為揵茨,有名鉢,有名匕匕羅,有名遮留,有 名毘悉多,有名婆闍那,有名薩牢。如彼 所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我異於 世人故。如是,比丘!有世間法,我自知自覺, 為人分別演說顯示,知見而說,世間盲無 目者不知不見;世間盲無目者不知不見, 我其如之何!

「比丘!云何世間世間法,我自 知自覺,乃至不知不見?色無常、苦、變易法, 是為世間世間法;受、想、行、識,無常、苦、變易法, 是世間世間法。比丘!是名世間世間法,我 自知自見,乃至盲無目者不知不見,其 如之何!」

佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡 喜奉行。

Many thanks
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

MĀ 75
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

There's one line in it that is absolutely bewildering.
譬如一器,有一處人,名為揵茨,有名鉢,有名匕匕羅,有名遮留,有名毘悉多,有名婆闍那,有名薩牢。
For example, it is like when the vessel is together with a (certain) person and it is called a "ghaṭī" (揵茨). It's called an almsbowl. It's called a 匕匕羅. It's called a 遮留. It's called a 毘悉多. It's called a 婆闍那. It's called a 薩牢.
I tried to see if there was any reasonable way in which these could not be transliterated names, and it seems impossible that would be the case. 匕匕羅 has something to do with spoons or ladles and a net, or an arrangement of spoons/ladles??? Many of these characters are well-established as being used principally to transliterate words, such as 揵茨 *kɨɐn·d͡ziɪ for something like "ghaṭī." The "spoon-spoon-net" is almost definitely a name, but as to which one I am absolutely unequipped to even begin to try to find out. It would make sense, contextually, if this was a list of "vessel or bowl-like things" that, depending on the context, were given different names. The rest of it isn't nearly as difficult as this weird section. I can put something together, then we'll have people look at it and see if there's anything horribly done.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:44 am
I wonder if it’s similar to MN 139?
How, bhikkhus, does there come to be insistence on local language and overriding of normal usage? Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a ‘dish’ [pāti], a ‘bowl’ [patta], a ‘vessel’ [vittha], a ‘saucer’ [sarāva], a ‘pan’ [dhāropa], a ‘pot’ [poṇa], a ‘mug’ [hana] or a ‘basin’ [pisīla]. So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, one speaks accordingly, firmly adhering [to that expression] and insisting: ‘Only this is correct; anything else is wrong.’ This is how there comes to be insistence on local language and overriding normal usage.
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

匕匕羅 is something like *piɪ·piɪ·lɑ. Maybe that's close enough to "pisīla?" I don't know. None of these Prakrit examples have a duplicated consonantal sound in them.

Functionally, the Pāli passage looks in parallel. Since I'm unable to figure out what the Chinese there says, I can't say.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:56 pm 匕匕羅 is something like *piɪ·piɪ·lɑ. Maybe that's close enough to "pisīla?" I don't know. None of these Prakrit examples have a duplicated consonantal sound in them.

Functionally, the Pāli passage looks in parallel. Since I'm unable to figure out what the Chinese there says, I can't say.
Thanks for your help so far. Using DeepL I got this
This is what I have heard.

At that time, the Buddha was living in the Gion Garden in the kingdom of Shewei.

Then the World Honored One told the bhikkhus, "The world knows that people seek wealth and life for their lowly karma, and they become rich. As the world knows, so do I say. What is the reason for this? Do not make me different from the world.

"The bhikkhus! For example, there is a vessel with a person named 揵ts, a person named 鉢, a person named 匕匕羅, a person named 珈留, a person named 毘悉多, a person named 婆闍那, a person named 薩牢. As they know, I say the same thing. What is the reason? I do not want to be different from the rest of the world. Thus, bhikkhu! There is a worldly law which I know and perceive, and which I speak for others, and which I know and see, and which the blind and sightless of the world do not know and do not see, and which the blind and sightless of the world do not know and do not see, what do I do?

"Bhikkhus! What are the worldly dharmas that I know and do not know and do not see? The worldly worldly dharma is impermanence, suffering, and change of color; the worldly worldly dharma is impermanence, suffering, and change of the dharma of suffering, thought, action, and consciousness. Bhikkhus! This is the worldly dharma, which I know and see, and which the blind and sightless do not know and do not see.

After the Buddha had said this sutra, the bhikkhus heard the Buddha's words and followed them with joy.
This bit was also interesting

如彼 所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我異於 世人故
"As they know, I say the same thing. What is the reason? I do not want to be different from the rest of the world. "
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

DeepL functions by guessing context. That is how it renders underdetermined Chinese into comparatively-determined English. It's getting the context wrong here. I'm quite sure that it's not that the Buddha "doesn't want" to be different.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:44 pm DeepL functions by guessing context. That is how it renders underdetermined Chinese into comparatively-determined English. It's getting the context wrong here. I'm quite sure that it's not that the Buddha "doesn't want" to be different.
Yes I always treat it as very very rough and so suspect.
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

At one time, the Buddha dwelt in the land of Śrāvastī, in Jetavana, (at) Anāthapiṇḍika's park. The Bhagavān told the many bhikṣus,

"People of the world, because of their lowly inferior karma, covet riches and life, and acquire great wealth. The people of the world all know this. (Concerning) that which is known by the people of the world, I too speak in that manner. Why is this so? I do not differentiate myself from the people of the world (in this way).

"For example, monks, it is like when the vessel is together with a (certain) person and it is called 'a ghaṭī.' It's called 'an almsbowl.' It's called 'a 匕匕羅.' It's called 'a 遮留.' It's called 'a 毘悉多.' It's called 'a 婆闍那.' It's called 'a 薩牢.' As this is known, I too speak in that manner. Why is this so? I do not differentiate myself from the people of the world.

"There are, bhikṣus, the worldly dharmas that I know for myself and understand. For the people, I distinguish, expound, reveal, (directly) know, and speak of them. The world is blind and sightless. It doesn't know and it doesn't see. Because the world is blind and sightless and does not see, what can I do?

"Bhikṣus, what are these worldly dharmas that I myself know and understand and (what are these worldly dharmas) which are not known and not understood? That form is a dharma that is impermanent, suffering, and (subject to) change. This is regarded as (one of) the world's worldly dharmas. Feeling, perceptions, the formations, and consciousness are dharmas that are impermanent, suffering, and are (subject to) change. These are the world's worldly dharmas. Bhikṣus, these are called the world's worldly dharmas that I myself know and see and the blind and sightless do not know and do not see. What can I do?"

Buddhavacana this sūtra was thereafter. The many bhikṣus heard the Buddha speak it. Happily, they rejoiced and upheld it.
We'll see if there's any significant errors.

As usual, no one on this forum should be treating this as a professional translation. There is also a lot of editorial material (in brackets). If there's any error right off the bat, I would guess that I've made some sort of mistake with "What can I do?" because the question just seems so odd there like that.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
asahi
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:31 pm Could anyone be so kind as to have a go at translating this short text?

如是我聞:

一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤 獨園。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「世人為卑下業, 種種求財活命,而得巨富,世人皆知。如世 人之所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我 異於世人。

「諸比丘!譬如一器,有一處人,名 為揵茨,有名鉢,有名匕匕羅,有名遮留,有 名毘悉多,有名婆闍那,有名薩牢。如彼 所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我異於 世人故。如是,比丘!有世間法,我自知自覺, 為人分別演說顯示,知見而說,世間盲無 目者不知不見;世間盲無目者不知不見, 我其如之何!

「比丘!云何世間世間法,我自 知自覺,乃至不知不見?色無常、苦、變易法, 是為世間世間法;受、想、行、識,無常、苦、變易法, 是世間世間法。比丘!是名世間世間法,我 自知自見,乃至盲無目者不知不見,其 如之何!」

佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡 喜奉行。

Many thanks
Hi Ceisiwr ,

FYR

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「世人為卑下業, 種種求財活命,而得巨富,世人皆知。如世 人之所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我 異於世人。

The Buddha told the bhiksu , worldly people doing a lowly job with various means acquiring money to earn their living and as such they obtained great wealth . This is how all the worldly people knows . I too speak as such just like they do . Why is it so ? It is because not to make myself look different to them .


「諸比丘!譬如一器,有一處人,名 為揵茨,有名鉢,有名匕匕羅,有名遮留,有 名毘悉多,有名婆闍那,有名薩牢。如彼 所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我異於 世人故。

Assembly of bhiksus , for example , say a vessel , there is a place people called it ganci , called it almsbowl or called it bibira , or called it zhē liú , or called it visita , or called it bhajana or called it salao . This is how all the worldly people knows . I too speak as such just like they do . And why is this so ? This is because not to make myself appear odd to them .


如是,比丘!有世間法,我自知自覺, 為人分別演說顯示,知見而說,世間盲無 目者不知不見;世間盲無目者不知不見, 我其如之何!

As such , bhiksu , there is this worldly dharmas , known and awakened by me , respectively expound , reveal to people and delivering true insight . Worldly people eyes are blinded therefore not truely comprehending it . If worldly people eyes are blinded and not comprehending it , so what am i to do ?


  
「比丘!云何世間世間法,我自 知自覺,乃至不知不見?色無常、苦、變易法, 是為世間世間法;受、想、行、識,無常、苦、變易法, 是世間世間法。比丘!是名世間世間法,我 自知自見,乃至盲無目者不知不見,其 如之何!」


Ps :
this part probably will try to translate later
Goodnite . :zzz:

:anjali:
Last edited by asahi on Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Interesting. Thanks both. The sutra seems to be comparing the aggregates to worldly conventions, wouldn’t you say?
"There is no I, nor anything belonging to me, I will not be, what belongs to me will not be. What has earlier [come to] exist, will be extinguished"

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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

asahi wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:08 pm[...]

「諸比丘!譬如一器,有一處人,名 為揵茨,有名鉢,有名匕匕羅,有名遮留,有 名毘悉多,有名婆闍那,有名薩牢。如彼 所知,我亦如是說。所以者何?莫令我異於 世人故。

Assembly of bhiksus , for example , say a vessel , there is a place people called it [...]
In light of the Pāli parallel, it makes a lot more sense to render 一處 as "a place." My reading involved 有 meaning "to have" and 一處 as "together" in the sense of "in one place" or "in a place." I didn't catch that. In light of the Pāli's "in different localities they call..." I mean.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

In light of the much more elegant realization of 有一處人 by Asahi, which renders my earlier tentative reading of "is together with a (certain) person" incorrect, this would be a more correct version of the previous:
At one time, the Buddha dwelt in the land of Śrāvastī, in Jetavana, (at) Anāthapiṇḍika's park. The Bhagavān told the many bhikṣus,

"People of the world, because of their lowly inferior karma, covet riches and life, and acquire great wealth. The people of the world all know this. (Concerning) that which is known by the people of the world, I too speak in that manner. Why is this so? I do not differentiate myself from the people of the world (in this way).

"For example, monks, it is like 'a vessel.' There is a certain place where people call it 'a ghaṭī.' They call it 'an almsbowl.' They call it 'a 匕匕羅.' They call it 'a 遮留.' They call it 'a 毘悉多.' They call it 'a 婆闍那.' They call it 'a 薩牢.' As this is known, I too speak in that manner. Why is this so? Because I do not differentiate myself from the people of the world.

"There are, bhikṣus, worldly dharmas that I know for myself and understand. For the people, I distinguish, expound, reveal, (directly) know, and speak of them. The world is blind and sightless. It doesn't know and it doesn't see. Because the world is blind and sightless and does not see, what can I do? Bhikṣus, what are these worldly dharmas that I myself know and understand and (what are these worldly dharmas) which are not known and not understood? Form is a dharma that is impermanent, suffering, and (subject to) change. This is regarded as (one of) the world's worldly dharmas. Feeling, perceptions, the formations, and consciousness are dharmas that are impermanent, suffering, and are (subject to) change. These are the world's worldly dharmas. Bhikṣus, these are called the world's worldly dharmas that I myself know and see and the blind and sightless do not know and do not see. What can I do?"

Buddhavacana this sūtra was thereafter. The many bhikṣus heard the Buddha speak it. Happily, they rejoiced and upheld it.
Points of difference with the first version are bolded.

I want to quote Asahi here because the forum doesn't have a tagging function:
asahi wrote:
We have a few places where we have differing opinions as to how to render these terms, and sometimes the English in your English rendering is a little bit lacking, but I do value your input, as I hope my posting has indicated. Where did you find the corresponding Sanskrit terms here?
asahi wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:08 pm[...] or called it bibira , or called it zhē liú , or called it visita , or called it bhajana [...]
I would be very curious to know the resource you used.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
asahi
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by asahi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:48 pm We have a few places where we have differing opinions as to how to render these terms, and sometimes the English in your English rendering is a little bit lacking, but I do value your input, as I hope my posting has indicated. Where did you find the corresponding Sanskrit terms here?
I would be very curious to know the resource you used.
I think someone else (not from this forum) are able to do better translation in the future . As for english I am just a private limited company . Also i'm afraid you cant find any dictionary or resource for those respective sanskrit terms . Actually , i happen to know a person whom do translation from mandarin / chinese (of sutra and mantra) to romanized sanskrit and i learned a few from there .
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Re: Worldly Dhammas

Post by Coëmgenu »

asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:11 amI think someone else (not from this forum) are able to do better translation in the future .
Certainly.
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:11 amAlso i'm afraid you cant find any dictionary or resource for those respective sanskrit terms . Actually , i happen to know a person whom do translation from mandarin / chinese (of sutra and mantra) to romanized sanskrit and i learned a few from there .
Well, that's a good connection you have, I'll say that, if the Sanskrit is right. I don't have enough Sanskrit to know.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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