How is aging & death impermanent?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm The gradual deterioration of the DNA in cells is the reason why the cloned sheep Dolly died early and had many health complications. Though "Dolly" was young, the cells used to produce her were not. It was "aged DNA," thus deteriorated DNA. If we have any biologists here and I've made a mistake, please correct me. AFAIK, this is true information.
That isn't quite right. Whilst this was a concern as she did have shorter telomeres, it was shown that she didn't age prematurely. Whilst the osteoarthritis was unusual for a sheep of her age, it's not unheard of.

When Dolly was a year old, analysis of her DNA showed that her telomeres - caps on the ends of DNA molecules that protect them from damage - were shorter than would be expected for a normal sheep of the same age.

As an animal or person ages, their telomeres become progressively shorter, exposing the DNA to more damage.

It was thought that, because Dolly's DNA came from an adult sheep, her telomeres had not been fully renewed during her development. This could have meant that Dolly was biologically older than her actual age.

However, extensive health screens on Dolly at the time did not find any conditions which could be directly related to premature or accelerated ageing.

Dolly spent her life at the Roslin Institute and, apart from the occasional media appearance, led a normal existence with the other sheep at the Institute.

Over the years, Dolly had a total of six lambs with a Welsh Mountain ram called David. Their first lamb, Bonnie, was born in April 1998.

In 2001, Dolly was diagnosed with arthritis after farm staff noticed her walking stiffly. This was successfully treated with anti-inflammatory medication, although the cause of the arthritis was never discovered.

After Dolly gave birth to her last lambs in September 2000, it was discovered that she had become infected by a virus called Jaagsiekte sheep retrovirus (JSRV), which causes lung cancer in sheep. Other sheep at the Roslin Institute had also been infected with JSRV in the same outbreak.

Dolly continued to have a normal quality of life until February 2003, when she developed a cough. A CT scan showed tumours growing in her lungs and the decision was made to euthanise Dolly rather than risk her suffering. Dolly was put to sleep on 14 February 2003, at the age of six.
https://www.ed.ac.uk/roslin/about/dolly ... e-of-dolly
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Fair enough. I stand corrected.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Also see here
Radiographic assessment of the skeletons of Dolly and other clones finds no abnormal osteoarthritis

Our recent report detailing the health status of cloned sheep concluded that the animals had aged normally. This is in stark contrast to reports on Dolly (first animal cloned from adult cells) whose diagnoses of osteoarthritis (OA) at 5½ years of age led to considerable scientific concern and media debate over the possibility of early-onset age-related diseases in cloned animals. Our study included four 8-year old ewes derived from the cell line that gave rise to Dolly, yet none of our aged sheep showed clinical signs of OA, and they had radiographic evidence of only mild or, in one case, moderate OA. Given that the only formal record of OA in Dolly is a brief mention of a single joint in a conference abstract, this led us to question whether the original concerns about Dolly’s OA were justified. As none of the original clinical or radiographic records were preserved, we undertook radiographic examination of the skeletons of Dolly and her contemporary clones. We report a prevalence and distribution of radiographic-OA similar to that observed in naturally conceived sheep, and our healthy aged cloned sheep. We conclude that the original concerns that cloning had caused early-onset OA in Dolly were unfounded.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-15902-8
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
pegembara
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by pegembara »

What is death?
Food for thought.

Henrietta Lacks was an African-American woman whose cancer cells are the source of the HeLa cell line, the first immortalized human cell line and one of the most important cell lines in medical research.

https://www.npr.org/2010/02/02/12323233 ... tal-legacy
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:58 am It means the condition for it can be removed. If it wasn't Impermanent you would not be able to remove or avoid the condition that causes it, which is birth.

If you are not born, you can't die
Nicolas wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:56 pm
:goodpost:
The above sound wrong because DN 11 appears to say earth, wind, fire & water cannot cease without remainder; yet the suttas say earth, wind, fire & water are impermanent. In other words, it appears the conditions for earth, wind, fire & water cannot be removed yet these elements remain impermanent.

Or DN 16 says:
When the Buddha became fully extinguished, Sakka, lord of gods, recited this verse:
Parinibbute bhagavati saha parinibbānā sakko devānamindo imaṁ gāthaṁ abhāsi:

“Oh! Conditions are impermanent,
Aniccā vata saṅkhārā,

their nature is to rise and fall;
uppādavayadhammino;

having arisen, they cease;
Uppajjitvā nirujjhanti,

their stilling is true bliss.”
tesaṁ vūpasamo sukho”ti.
Therefore, the Buddha above was "impermanent". In other words, there was no condition that could be removed to stop the Buddha's impermanence. Anyway, thanks for the interesting answer. :D :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:22 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 am
The Buddha says aging&death is conditioned, dependently arisen, but dependent on what. Is it dependent on conceiving beings?
Yes. To the body, like the eyes, there is no discernment, it's simply just colours. It's the mind that cognizes concepts like birth and death. It's the mind that says "this group of colours is a person who I love, and when this group of colours disappears I am sad"

Identity view takes one group of colours and says it's "mine" and whatever is mine causes pain when it is no longer mine without my permission.
I am glad to read you changed your view and listened to a voice of reason, above. :candle:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
un8-
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:48 am
un8- wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:22 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:14 am
The Buddha says aging&death is conditioned, dependently arisen, but dependent on what. Is it dependent on conceiving beings?
Yes. To the body, like the eyes, there is no discernment, it's simply just colours. It's the mind that cognizes concepts like birth and death. It's the mind that says "this group of colours is a person who I love, and when this group of colours disappears I am sad"

Identity view takes one group of colours and says it's "mine" and whatever is mine causes pain when it is no longer mine without my permission.
I am glad to read you changed your view and listened to a voice of reason, above. :candle:
You're about 10-12 years late, but thanks for the compliment.

Credit goes to this video and the suttas

There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:56 am Credit goes to this video and the suttas
But in your original post here, you appears to say death is "physical" rather than a mental idea. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:31 pm
un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:56 am Credit goes to this video and the suttas
But in your original post here, you appears to say death is "physical" rather than a mental idea. :roll:
It's both, but it's experiential first and foremost. No one wants to experience death, and you can't experience death if you don't experience birth. Arahants still feel the first arrow, even though the second arrow has been removed.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:07 pm It's both, but it's experiential first and foremost. No one wants to experience death, and you can't experience death if you don't experience birth. Arahants still feel the first arrow, even though the second arrow has been removed.
Sorry but physical death cannot be experienced. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
pegembara
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by pegembara »

Death can seem permanent if you had once "existed" and are no more. Or you could say the "experience" of being dead is "permanent" whereas the experience of being alive is impermanent.
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

― Mark Twain
"'I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this Dhamma & Discipline. I cannot explain the doctrine to you in detail, but I will tell you the gist in brief.'


"'Speak a little or a lot,
but tell me just the gist.
The gist is what I want.
What use is a lot of verbosity?'
"Then Ven. Assaji gave me this Dhamma exposition:


"'Whatever phenomena arise from cause:
their cause
and their cessation.
Such is the teaching of the Tathagata,
the Great Contemplative.'"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:25 am “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

― Mark Twain
I suppose it matters a lot where Mark Twain is


whether he should have feared death
pegembara
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:35 am
pegembara wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:25 am “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

― Mark Twain
I suppose it matters a lot where Mark Twain is


whether he should have feared death
Guess we'll never know exactly what "Mark Twain" really knew or realized.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: How is aging & death impermanent?

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:23 pm
un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:07 pm It's both, but it's experiential first and foremost. No one wants to experience death, and you can't experience death if you don't experience birth. Arahants still feel the first arrow, even though the second arrow has been removed.
Sorry but physical death cannot be experienced. :roll:
You don't know that, how many physical deaths do you remember?
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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