MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

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frank k
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MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k »

MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistT ... lates_3rd/

I'd appreciate the Chinese scholars on here for any thoughts and clarifications, whether they agree with Charles's translation, etc.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:32 am MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

https://www.reddit.com/r/EarlyBuddhistT ... lates_3rd/

I'd appreciate the Chinese scholars on here for any thoughts and clarifications, whether they agree with Charles's translation, etc.


Hi frank ,
I read chinese . I am not a translator though but maybe i can be of little help . My take is Charles's translation on this sentence appear not able to capture the meaning correctly .


「復次,行禪者離於喜欲,捨無求遊,正念正智而身覺樂,謂聖所說、聖所捨、念、樂住、空,得第三禪成就遊。彼心修習正思,從第三禪趣第四禪,是勝息寂。

Moreover , meditator by abandoning elated joys , abiding equanimously , rightly mindful rightly comprehend and experiencing bliss in the body , of which the noble ones proclaim ; the noble composure , mindful , dwelling in bliss , accomplish and abiding in the third absorption . With his mind developing right resolve , hence from third absorption pacing towards fourth absorption that which is a far more excellent peace .


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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k »

asahi wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:18 pm ...
「復次,行禪者離於喜欲,捨無求遊,正念正智而身覺樂,謂聖所說、聖所捨、念、樂住、空,得第三禪成就遊。彼心修習正思,從第三禪趣第四禪,是勝息寂。

Moreover , meditator by abandoning elated joys , abiding equanimously , rightly mindful rightly comprehend and experiencing bliss in the body , of which the noble ones proclaim ; the noble composure , mindful , dwelling in bliss , accomplish and abiding in the third absorption . With his mind developing right resolve , hence from third absorption pacing towards fourth absorption that which is a far more excellent peace .


:anjali:
Thanks for your input, and I didn't mean anyone has to be a scholar or professional. Anyone with reasonable fluency in Ancient Chinese, or any Chinese really.
Charles claims that in ancient Chinese, that part with experiencing bliss in the body is often an idiomatic expression not specifically designating the physical body. What do you see in this situation, is there a chance that applies here, or is it unambiguously designating sukha as bodily, as the pali does?
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:27 am
Thanks for your input, and I didn't mean anyone has to be a scholar or professional. Anyone with reasonable fluency in Ancient Chinese, or any Chinese really.
Charles claims that in ancient Chinese, that part with experiencing bliss in the body is often an idiomatic expression not specifically designating the physical body. What do you see in this situation, is there a chance that applies here, or is it unambiguously designating sukha as bodily, as the pali does?
Hi ,

Here is a sutta (MA208) in plain mandarin
where its parallel is MN79 Culasakuludayi sutta .


I quote the 3rd jhana part in MA208

http://www.charity.idv.tw/n/n97.htm

translation by 喬正一 :

當離於喜欲,安住於平靜,正念、正知,
只剩身體感受到樂的覺受
安住於第三禪

Highlighted part :
only left with bodily feeling the bliss


==============================


Also maybe you might want to refer to translation by Charles :
MA98 , The Abodes of Mindfulness .

(因品)

https://suttacentral.net/ma98/en/patton



Furthermore, a monk observes body as body.
復次比丘觀身如身。

That monk’s body is wet and moistened by happiness that arises from the absence of joy.
比丘者無喜生樂。漬身潤澤

It thoroughly fills what’s in his body.
普遍充滿於此身中

There’s nowhere that that happiness that arises from the absence of joy doesn’t reach.
無喜生樂無處不遍。


-------------------------------------------------------------

Ps .
MA98
因品 The causal chapter (my translation)


Note :
It is clear that Charles MA176 translation on third jhana part to be inaccurate or not being consistent with his own translation and not in accordance to the agama narration or even appear diverse when comparing to other translator .
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k »

asahi wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:09 pm ...
Elsewhere Charles had said he doesn't believe the jhana similes are referring to jhana. The agamas don't explicitly call out those similes (MA 98) as states of jhanas, as the pali similes do.
I'm going to question him further on this issue at some point.

AFAIK, no one has ever translated Chinese Agama 3rd jhana like he did, treating as not physical body but as an idiomatic expression of "personally".
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by Coëmgenu »

It looks like a very close parallel with the type of dhyāna pericope found in the Arthaviniścayasūtra, which likely (i.e. definitely) has further parallels in the Pāli Canon, given that it is such a plain dhyāna pericope. Given that the Chinese matches so closely the Prākrit, C. Patton's argument would be based on the Indic usage of kāyena, and not the Chinese usage of 身, possibly. So basically, if my thinking is correct, the justification for reading "personally" would be based on the fact that the term translates "kāyena." Independent of kāyena, there is yet another reason why C. Patton might opt for "personally."

Scholars fight over two etymologies for 身 ("body") as a character. One camp says that it means "a torso" in its most primitive usage. These derive the word from Proto-Sino-Tibetan *sjan referring to flesh and meat, particularly of animals. The other camp believes it means "heart" or "brain" or even "mind" in its older usage. These think it comes from *sknjiŋ. This would make it a cognate with Tibetan "snying," meaning "heart." Unfortunately, the range of meanings that 身 accrued over time make it impossible to know if "bodily" or "personally" is meant unless you have an encyclopedic knowledge of exactly how the character was used specifically around ~400AD, when this was translated AFAIK. I am currently trying to build a base of such knowledge, but am not yet qualified to weigh in on the matter. I can however amalgamate dictionary entries in this thread.

Here is Wiktionary, from which the earlier etymological material citing the Sino-Tibetan Etymological Dictionary and Thesaurus (the older *sjan camp) and reconstructions from Baxter and Sagart (the *sknjiŋ camp) is also pulled:


1. (anatomy) body
2. (figuratively) body; main part
3. pregnancy
4. oneself
5. in person; personally
6. I; me
7. life; one's (entire) life
8. social status
9. moral character
10. Classifier for suits of clothes.
The biggest problem with Wiktionary, and most dictionaries, is that they don't list the vague dates by which these usages become firmly established. IMO, the reading of "personally," if not from interpreting kāyena, would come from its usage as a pronoun, usage 6 above. At one point, the Chinese started saying "this body" for "me."

The Fo Guang Shan Dictionary:
1. shēn noun human body; torso
2. shēn noun Kangxi radical 158
3. shēn measure word measure word for clothes
4. shēn noun self
5. shēn noun life
6. shēn noun an object
7. shēn noun a lifetime
8. shēn adverb personally
9. shēn noun moral character
10. shēn noun status; identity; position
11. shēn noun pregnancy
12. juān proper noun India
13. shēn noun body; kāya
The Fo Guang Shan dictionary further gives an example for usage 8, "personally:"
彼身織屨,妻辟纑,以易之也。
He himself weaves sandals of hemp, and his wife twists and dresses threads of hemp to sell or exchange them.
(translation from Mencius by James Legge)
A more literal, but less semantically exact, rending might be that "This body (referring to "he himself") weaves sandals and the wife prepares the threads in order to sell or exchange them," but I am not disagreeing with Legge's professional translation. This is simply a more awkward way to render it that preserves "this body" being literally said in the English.

The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism has the largest and most detailed entry of the dictionaries I know online that I can easily cut-and-paste from:
Especially designated in contrast to the mind. Person, life, container. Myself, I, me (Skt. kāya, kāyika, śarīra, gātra, deha, ātman). [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura]

(1) The early Chinese sense of the character 'shen' 身 is deeply informed by Confucian influence, referring to a body and self that are one and the same. As Roger Ames explains, the physical body participates in Chinese Confucian ritual practice and thereby also in the community in general, thus becoming the social self, which can be refined and cultivated to achieve full humanity, physically, morally, aesthetically, intellectually and spiritually.1 But Buddhism, which uses this same classical Chinese language in East Asia, does not regard body (kāya, rūpa) and self (ātman) as synonymous, nor does it even recognize a self. Buddhist scholars tend not to pay special attention to questions regarding the body, because in the context of Buddhist doctrine, which lays stress on the questions regarding the existence of a distinct individual self. [G. Chin]

(2) Western discussions of the concept of body usually refer to the human being, but in Buddhism the concept is far more complex. For example, to anthropologists, the body is a locus of culture, but in the Buddhist philosophical sense it is a means of knowing and identifying aspects and levels of consciousness or mind that inhabit and create the universe.2 The nomenclature of different bodies signifies the different aspects of being that characterizes the dwellers of the Mahāyāna Buddhist cosmos, such as animal, human, bodhisattva or Buddha. There are ten types in total, which are designated as the 'Ten Worlds of Mahāyāna Buddhism.' In certain contexts, the usage of the term body (esp. as the Sanskrit kāya) is a metaphor for a sense of self — analogous with the Western notion of ego. The sense of identity and difference created by naming these different body types is an upāya, an skillful means of teaching to the unenlightened. Defining as such the bodies of the Buddha or the arhat, or the human, can lead to strenuous religious disputation, as each school and sect views 'bodies' in innumerable different ways to suit its views of the world in which teaching is to be conveyed. What follows are brief general definitions of the bodies of the Buddha and bodhisattvas and of the human body. [Gail Chin]

(3) The word 身 or 身體 is used most often to refer to the human body in classical Chinese, but as mentioned above Buddhists make use of the word in quite a different manner than Confucians. Buddhists tend to reject the concrete physical body that is viewed as the source of desire and sexual feelings that engender passion and the continuation of life through procreation. All sentient beings possess the physical aspect of the body, which is subject to birth, decay, and death. While there is no eternal 'self' or soul, Buddhists believe that the sentient being is formed of the five aggregates, or skandhas, having a physical body (Skt. rūpa) and consciousness (nāma), which together are referred to as nāma-rūpa.3 At the simplest level, nāma is considered to be the appearance of rūpa; nāma is feelings, perceptions, intentions, etc. that identify rūpa, hence 'name' and 'consciousness.' 4 All sentient beings, including buddhas, are made of name and consciousness, referred to in Chinese as 名色 . As a single word, this term loosely refers to the unity of body and mind; Buddhists do not regard the mind and body as separate dual functioning parts, but rather the body contains the mind, which is regarded as one of the senses of sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell and consciousness. In cases where Buddhism construed by Western academics as a type of psychology, mind is mistakenly considered to rule the body, but if one understands the body as a thing that is lived in the phenomenological sense of Western philosophers, such as Edmund Husserl, Maurice Merleau-Ponty, and others, then one will see it as a medium of sensation that experiences the world.5 [G. Chin]

(4) To state that one possesses a body or an eternal self is referred to as 身見 /我見, or 'seeing the body,' which is considered to be non-Buddhist. Sometimes the Japanese monks Dōgen (道元 1200–1253) and Shinran (親鸞 1173–1263) are considered to have believed in the existence of a 'spirit,' or tamashii 靈, but most scholars of Buddhism would dispute this. Belief in an eternal self is one of the five (mistaken) views 五見. [G. Chin]

(5) Although the Buddha is not thought of as being a rūpa body, during his lifetime, he suffered the vicissitudes of birth and death. Having achieved enlightenment, he shed his physical aspect and assumed a Tathāgata body that was no longer subject to the forces of karma; he was eternal, though lacking in substance, and a supernal entity that offers itself to the world through two of his three bodies (trikāya 三身), according to Mahāyāna schools of thought. Using these two bodies, he can remain in nirvana, while he sends forth his nirmāṇa-kāya 化身, a transient physical body to help others, and allows others to see his body in visions and dreams that generates pleasure and ease, referred to as the saṃbhoga-kāya 應身, but most of all the eternal body, or dharma-kāya 法身 , is without fear or impairment that is supreme and remains aloof. For further discussion of the three bodies, see 三身. [G. Chin]

(6) The eternal bodies of the Buddha are born of pure mind or consciousness, thus mind-made-bodies 意生身 (manomaya-kāya) not composed from the five skandhas 五蘊.6 In the Mahāyāna tradition, bodhisattvas also possess salvific supranormal qualities to help sentient beings. Though they have the ability to achieve nirvāṇa, they have chosen to remain in the defiled world. The bodies by which they use to conjure miracles and rescue humans and other creatures are also created of pure consciousness at certain levels of consciousness; this is a body that is created at will. [G. Chin]

(7) The sentient being who perceives, also possesses the gross body that is subject to birth, illness, old age and death, and follows the laws of karma. Many modern scholars of Buddhist literature and art view the human body as 'flesh' that is subject to the vicissitudes of social attitudes and consequent gender politics, often under the influence of postmodernism in the thought of Michel Foucault and others.7 According to Buddhists, the body is an impermanent thing, therefore caution should be taken not to become attached to it, as well it is the source of desire of all types, especially sexual desire, and should be denied, although enough care should be taken so that the believer is able to practice the tenets of Buddhism and meditate. The Vimalakīrti-sūtra 維摩經 is an interesting Mahāyāna Buddhist entry into the topic of the body, as it is the skillful means 方便 by which the layman, Vimalakīrti expounds the Dharma to the defiled world. He feigns illness, proof of corporeal vulnerability, to gain an audience in order to teach. The body is considered to be innately sick in the Buddhist mind, according to the layman. [G. Chin]

The body, whether female or male, is considered to be the root of desire, which causes suffering. Ending suffering is the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice therefore a thing that engenders continuous suffering is to be despised. This is clearly discussed in the Vimalakīrti-sūtra during the debate between the layman and the bodhisattva, Mañjuśrī. Mañjuśrī asks, "What is root of good and not good?" Vimalakīrti answers, "The body is the root." To which the bodhisattva again asks, "What is the root of the body?" To which, the layman says: "Desire and greed are the root." 8 In this simple parley the central Buddhist teaching about the corporeal reality of sentient beings is set forth. Then he says: "this body is impermanent, without durability...it suffers." 9 If the human form is a terrible thing, then he urges his audience to seek "the Buddha body:..Because the Buddha body is the Dharma body." 10 The corporeal body and the Dharma body are diametrical opposites. This sets the stage for the unfolding of the sermon. For the early Indian background to these thoughts found in the Vimalakīrti, see Liz Wilson, Chapter 2, pp.41-76. [G. Chin]

All bodies are considered to be the source of defilement, especially that of the female, which has been much discussed in text and image, see 九想圖, Wilson, Kanda. The goal of Buddhism is extinction of the mortal body, so the female body that procreates new life is viewed as antithetical to its goals. In other ways, the female body also distracts monks away from their practice, inducing sexual desire. These are among the reasons for the Buddhist dislike of women and consequent discrimination between the sexes. Buddhist discrimination against women is also a cultural accumulation that varies in the different societies that it has entered. [G. Chin]

(8)The Sanskrit word śarīra 舍利 refers to the body, meaning the relics of the Buddha and other holy persons.11 There are three types of relics, of which bodily relics are primary to the sense of remains of the body. As mentioned above, the Buddha had overcome the physical body in order to achieve mahāparinirvāṇa, hence death had been conquered, yet at the same time, his relics were a sign of his former presence and they remain the expression of his bodily presence on earth now. The bodily relics and the other accoutrements of the Buddha were enshrined at stūpas and worshiped, enabling those who made offerings to them to acquire merit. Relics were carried across Asia and prized as they conferred earthly and spiritual power upon the owners, thus the reason for royal patronage in various Buddhist countries, whose rulers claimed to be the protectors of the Buddhaʼs body. [G. Chin]

In the Daoxing jing 道行經, shen 身 is used as a translation of skandha in the literal sense of a 'heap' of things. 「...於有 餘功德自致無餘。諸有般泥洹佛。於其中所作功德。至有淨戒身三昧身智慧身已脫 身脫慧所現身。」 "All those other merits, the merits of self-achieved without-remainder parinirvāṇa of a buddha, from within which are produced merits including the heaps of pure śīla, heaps of samādhi, heaps of wisdom, heaps of liberation, and the heap manifested by liberated wisdom." T 224.8.438a23. [Will Giddings; source(s): Nakamura]

In Abhidharma/Yogâcāra theories of personal composition, this refers to the 'skin' as the organ, or basis for the tactile consciousness (sense of touch) or faculty 身根/身識 (Skt. sparśana) [Charles Muller]

When it translates the Sanskrit kāya, 身 can have the meaning of 'group, collection, kind of' 集 as in the case of the compound pañca-vijñāna-kāyāḥ = 五識身, which Lambert Schmithausen renders as "five kinds of [sense-]perception." See Schmithausen, p. 650 and Edgerton, p.177. [A. Todeschini]
Transliterated as 提訶 . [Charles Muller]
(Skt. ātma-bhāva; aṅga, aṅga-pratyaṅga, adhiṣṭhāna, ātmaka, āśraya, indriya, upādāna, kaḍebara, kaḍevara, *kalevara, kāyêndriya, janman, tad-deha, tanu, *tanū, dehin, dhātu, dhātu-vigraha, nikāya, piṇḍa, pratikṛti, bhāva, *mūrti, vapus, vigraha, viṣpanda, veśa, veṣa, śarīratā, śarīrika, saṃkalā, saṃtati, saṃtāna, samuccaya, samucchraya, samūha*, sāṃtānika, skandha, svabhāva-vigraha, sva-śarīra) [Charles Muller; source(s): Hirakawa]
With all that, we can look at the Chinese text, which Asahi has already rendered. All I'm going to do is point out the Arthaviniścayasūtra parallel. I imagine a Pāli whiz can easily identify which Pāli passage this Sanskrit text is in parallel with. I could do it myself, but I have to make breakfast soon.

離於喜欲 sa prītervirāgād
捨無求遊 upekṣako viharati
正念正智 smṛtaḥ saṁprajānan sukhaṁ
而身覺樂 ca kāyena pratisaṁvedayati
*the Chinese requires "sukhaṁ" (樂) be moved to after "pratisaṁvedayati" (覺)

謂聖所說 yattadāryā ācakṣate
聖所捨 (āryā?) upekṣakaḥ
smṛtimān
樂住 sukhavihārīti
空 (???)
*the Chinese adds "emptiness" or "empty" (空) here

得第三禪成就遊 tṛtīyaṁ dhyānamupasaṁpadya viharati

It looks like "āryā" gets duplicated in the Chinese text maybe? Difficult to know. This is the limits of my Sanskrit ability.

From the translation of Venerable Ānandajoti hosted on SuttaCentral:
sa prītervirāgād upekṣako viharati | smṛtaḥ saṁprajānan sukhaṁ ca kāyena pratisaṁvedayati | yattadāryā ācakṣate upekṣakaḥ smṛtimān sukhavihārīti | tṛtīyaṁ dhyānamupasaṁpadya viharati ||
With the fading away of rapture he dwells equanimous, mindful, clearly knowing, experiencing happiness through the body, about which the Noble Ones declare: He lives pleasantly, mindful, and equanimous, (thus) he dwells having attained the third absorption.
(Arv 8)
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by Coëmgenu »

I found the Pāli correspondence in Waryoffolly's thread here:
1. Third jhana formula:
DN1, DN 2.22, DN 3.10, DN 9.3, etc
'yato kho, bho, ayaṃ attā pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti “upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī”ti, tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati'
I'm not an expert on things like lining up Chinese and Sanskrit. In the process of editing the above correspondence, my editing time ran out. This, I think, is a better more sensible correspondence:
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:49 am離於喜欲 sa prītervirāgād
捨無求遊 upekṣako viharati
正念正智 smṛtaḥ saṁprajānan
而身覺樂 sukhaṁ ca kāyena pratisaṁvedayati
*the Chinese requires "sukhaṁ" (樂) be moved to after "pratisaṁvedayati" (覺)

謂聖所說 yattadāryā ācakṣate
聖所捨念 (āryā?) upekṣakaḥ smṛtimān
樂住 sukhavihārīti
空 (???)
*the Chinese adds "emptiness" or "empty" (空) here

得第三禪成就遊 tṛtīyaṁ dhyānamupasaṁpadya viharati
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by waryoffolly »

frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:48 am Elsewhere Charles had said he doesn't believe the jhana similes are referring to jhana. The agamas don't explicitly call out those similes (MA 98) as states of jhanas, as the pali similes do.
I'm going to question him further on this issue at some point.
Charles’s argument for there only being a single agama parallel for the jhana similes is flimsy IMO

It looks like in his mind in order to count as a parallel, the full jhana formula must be used in the agama instead of a condensed version. Using this criteria there is only a single agama parallel to the similes-DA 20.

However if we consider the brief phrases in MA as references to jhana, then the number of parallels in the agamas goes up to 3 or 4. Note that there are six occurrences of the similes in the pali canon by my count, so 3 or 4 having parallels is pretty good. Three of the references are MA 98, MA 81, and DA 20. The fourth one which doesn't use the below phrases, and only includes what seems to be first jhana is MA 191.

The phrases which we must take as references to the vedana in jhana in order to get a count of 4 are by Charles’s translation:
1. 'joy and happiness that arises from seclusion'
2 'joy and happiness that arises from concentration'
3. 'happiness that arises from the absence of joy'
4. 'accomplishment of the mental freedom of a pure mind'

Given that the jhana's are sometimes referred to with synecdoche in the pali canon such as 'paviveka-piti', we have clear precedent (in the pali at least) for taking references to seclusion born happiness etc as meaning jhana. Moreover, these phrases are almost copy-pasted from the jhana formula's, so that alone should at least be suggestive that jhana is meant here.

Also, in general, the lack of an explicit pericope is not clearcut evidence that a specific state (which is defined by that pericope) isn't being discussed. There are many, many other clear-cut instances in the suttas where a state is discussed without using a formulaic pericope.

To substantiate his claim further that these similes aren’t referring to jhana, I would want to see more investigation into how these expressions are used in the agamas. Right now, based on similar expressions in the pali canon I strongly lean towards taking these as references to jhana.

Anyways, I wasn’t originally going to post publicly on this issue, but its come up several times since he posted his argument against the similes being references to jhana.

And just to be clear-I think Charles is a respectful and intelligent person, despite any criticism I made here of his arguments.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:04 pm […
Start a topic of SuttaCentral and find out.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:48 am Elsewhere Charles had said he doesn't believe the jhana similes are referring to jhana. The agamas don't explicitly call out those similes (MA 98) as states of jhanas, as the pali similes do.
I'm going to question him further on this issue at some point.

AFAIK, no one has ever translated Chinese Agama 3rd jhana like he did, treating as not physical body but as an idiomatic expression of "personally".

Imo it is not idiomatic expression .


Please refer to this agama which narrate the 3rd jhana elements . All elements are similar as listed in other agama suttas . I will just translate the part reflects the jhana aspect .



SA 869

第三禪 The Third jhana

如是我聞:

一時,佛住舍衛國祇樹給孤獨園。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「若比丘如是行、如是形、如是相,離貪喜,捨住正念正智,覺身樂,聖人能說能捨念樂住,第三禪具足住。若不爾者,以如是行、如是形、如是相,於受、想、行、識法思惟如病、如癰、如刺、如殺,乃至上流;若不爾者,以彼法,欲法、念法、樂生遍淨天;若不爾者,生無量淨天;若不爾者,生少淨天。」

佛說此經已,諸比丘聞佛所說,歡喜奉行。




Abandoning elated joy , abiding equanimously , rightly mindful rightly comprehending , body filled with bliss .


If not so , with these dharma , zealous , mindful and rapture , will be born in subhakinna realm ; if not so , will be born in Appamāṇasubha realm ; if not so , will be born in Parittasubha realm .
Last edited by asahi on Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:32 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:04 pm […
Start a topic of SuttaCentral and find out.
I’ve had a short discussion with Charles via pm about this topic already. It was pleasant, despite not agreeing with him about some points.

I don’t really want to get into a long public debate (as is usual) about this topic-just wanted to post a quick counterpoint since his post has been shared and discussed a few times now.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:32 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:04 pm […
Start a topic of SuttaCentral and find out.
I’ve had a short discussion with Charles via pm about this topic already. It was pleasant, despite not agreeing with him about some points.

I don’t really want to get into a long public debate (as is usual) about this topic-just wanted to post a quick counterpoint since his post has been shared and discussed a few times now.
What was the gist of his reply?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:49 am It looks like a very close parallel with the type of dhyāna pericope found in the Arthaviniścayasūtra, which likely (i.e. definitely) has further parallels in the Pāli Canon, given that it is such a plain dhyāna pericope. Given that the Chinese matches so closely the Prākrit, C. Patton's argument would be based on the Indic usage of kāyena, and not the Chinese usage of 身, possibly. So basically, if my thinking is correct, the justification for reading "personally" would be based on the fact that the term translates "kāyena."...
I thought CPatton was translating based on chinese 身, and not on sanskrit kaya. He is even still debating whether to translate every jhana passage differently according to how those chinese translators did.

But let's say he was translating (from chinese) attempting to match indic "kāyena.", which is what I would do.
Pali third jhana and Arthaviniścayasūtra has, "sukham ca kayena patisamvedeti".
Pali and sanskrit grammar there by default is qualifying sukha as bodily.
That's why pretty much everyone in history that I'm aware of translate third jhana (pali and chinese agama) the same way as bodily pleasure, aside from Sujato and CPatton.

As far as I can tell, chinese Agama 3rd jhana with simile, such as DA 20,
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... re-or.html


is going to have the same problem as DN 2 if you try to make kaya "personal" (rather than physical)

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -rupa.html

DN 2 shares the same interesting feature of DA 20 where instead of the usual 6 higher knowledges, it adds 2 more special knowledges that don't appear in any other pali suttas (outside of DN). Why? Because those passages follow right after imperturbable 4th jhana (which follows 3rd jhana), so the early sutta reciters/preservers were deliberately glossing the terms 'rupa' and 'kaya' to unequivocally designate them as 4 element anatomical body and differentiate from mind. (to show consistent usage all the way through from 3rd to 4th jhana to the 2 special knowledges)

And as Asahi pointed on in his posts on the thread, CPatton's translation is inconsistent with kaya身 in the jhana similes, suddenly switching from physical to metaphorical "personal". I pointed out the same glaring inconsistency with Sujato and DN 2 in detailed audits.

Note to @waryoffolly, even in those agama passages where the jhana similes are not explicitly called jhanas, it's going to have the same jarring inconsistency as DN 2 and DA 20 were "kaya" in 3rd jhana "kaya sukha" suddenly goes from being "personal" to a physical kaya身 in the similes.

Also notice CPatton in DA 20
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... re-or.html
in first 3 jhanas, it looks like he turns kaya身 into "personal" even for the first 3 similes,
but then in 4th jhana he suddenly jumps back into physical body.
Again, I don't know chinese, but it sure looks like DA 20 is doing exactly the same thing as DN 2 in using kaya to specifically contrast physical from mental, and chaos ensues when you start arbitrarily jumping back and forth between physical and "personal".
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by Coëmgenu »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 amI thought CPatton was translating based on chinese 身, and not on sanskrit kaya.
I figured he was basing it on Sanskrit, but then I found out that 身 can be a pronoun, which really throws a wrench in it not being able to mean "personally." The Legge translation from Mencius above pretty much confirms the "personally" usage. Legge uses the words "he himself," but "he personally" is semantically identical here. So Patton has precedent, long precedent, to read it as "personally." Mencius is from sometime near ~380BC. That's way before these āgamas were translated. I don't know if it was old-fashioned or not to use 身 in this way by 400AD, so I can't really tell you anything more unfortunately about which reading is more likely.

Regardings this,
frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 amPali third jhana and Arthaviniścayasūtra has, "sukham ca kayena patisamvedeti".
Pali and sanskrit grammar there by default is qualifying sukha as bodily.
...the Chinese also clearly identifies the 身 to be what experiences (覺) sukha (樂). The words have to be moved around in Chinese to establish this.

bodily kāyena
he experiences pratisaṁvedayati
bliss sukhaṁ

There is no difference in Chinese here between "bodily, he experiences bliss" and "his body experiences bliss." The "bliss" has to be moved around positionally in the sentence to make sure that this is established. "Pratisaṁvedayati" is some sort of causative, no? That isn't preserved at all in the Chinese.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: MA 176 translator Charles Patton translates 3rd jhana body like Sujato, "he personally experiences happiness"

Post by frank k »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 am ...
Also notice CPatton in DA 20
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... re-or.html
in first 3 jhanas, it looks like he turns kaya身 into "personal" even for the first 3 similes,
but then in 4th jhana he suddenly jumps back into physical body.
Again, I don't know chinese, but it sure looks like DA 20 is doing exactly the same thing as DN 2 in using kaya to specifically contrast physical from mental, and chaos ensues when you start arbitrarily jumping back and forth between physical and "personal".

In case the implications of that are not clear,
So Abhidharma says first 3 jhanas are mind only, (CPatton justifies his translation on Abhidharma)
but then in 4th jhana, suddenly he is percipient of body?

Really the million dollar question for CPatton, and Sujato, is why, when DA 20 and DN 2 is giving you the sutta composer's gloss for rupa, kaya, (in 3rd jhana, 4th jhana, and those 2 special knowledges outside of 6 abhinna), if you were to translate 'kaya' and '身' consistently within that sutta, would you think that plugging in Abhidhamma and Abhidharma redefinitions of jhana as mind only, makes more sense, seeing as that renders those two suttas being inconsistent and incoherent with respect to 'kaya' and '身' ?

What happened to Sujato's guiding translation principle of least meaning and okham's razor is usually right? They all say their job is to translate and not interpret, but it doesn't look that way.
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