5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Ontheway
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ontheway »

Well, that Sutta by Arahant Sariputta Thera, the General of Dhamma, precisely refuted the previous post of yours. :|

Our own opinions and interpretation means nothing in this Dispensation of The Enlightened One, especially when comes to core teachings. For we are all not Arahants or any levels of sainthood, still layfollowers, still bound to defilements and Avijja.
“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. He is our guide and our refuge. Sir, may the Buddha himself please clarify the meaning of this. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”
So, I will focus on the scriptures. I think it is hypocritical if someone acts as a student of Dhamma, yet pay no regards to Suttanta (even when a Sutta text given), only value imperfect modern personal opinion and interpretation, which is in no way to be taken as authority whatsoever but promote more potentially dangerous Papanca.

The answer regarding Sati practice is in Pāli Tipitaka. Not Dipitaka or Ekapitaka.

:anjali: :buddha2:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ontheway »

Faring far, wandering alone,
bodiless,
lying in a cave, is the mind. Those who subdue it are freed from the
bond of Mara.
I think quoting Pāli is better...
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=037

This verse were spoken by Lord Buddha to Ven. Sangharakkhita, a young Bhikkhu. At the end of the short Dhamma discourse given by Lord Buddha, he attained Sotapatti Phala.
Durangamam ekacaram1
asariram guhasayam2
ye cittam samyamissanti
mokkhanti marabandhana.

Verse 37: The mind wanders far and moves about alone: it is non-material; it lies in the cave (chamber) of the heart. Those who control their mind will be free from the bonds of Mara.

Pāli term definition:
1. ekacaram: walking alone, moves about alone, it means conceiving one thought at a time, i.e., one thought arises only when another ceases.

2. guhasayam: lit., lying, or sleeping in a cave; mind lies and arises continually in the cave (chamber) of the heart (hadayavatthu), the seat of consciousness.
Here in this verse, the Teacher was teaching about the nature of mind. Not the physical body. The mind is changing so rapidly, as if a wild lone monkey that jump far here and there without restraint (simile).

The mind is non-material (hence without body), arises and ceases with one consciousness after another consciousness (ekacaram), based in the seat of consciousness aka heart base/basis in the "cave" (guhasayam) lit. in the heart chamber.

It is important to understand that seat of consciousness is in the heart, but not the physical heart itself. Just like the eye basis is a support for eye-consciousness, so too, the heart basis is a support for mind consciousness.

:anjali: :buddha2:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:49 pm
It is important to understand that seat of consciousness is in the heart, but not the physical heart itself. Just like the eye basis is a support for eye-consciousness, so too, the heart basis is a support for mind consciousness.

:anjali: :buddha2:
From what I’ve read the Visuddhimagga and later commentarial texts thought it was the actual heart. It was quite a common view in the ancient world, east and west, since this is where we feel anxiety etc. The Abhidhamma texts themselves merely say “that matter which is the basis” and leaves it at that. Based on what we know today, if we were to tie consciousness to matter we would find this connection in the brain.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:04 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:49 pm
It is important to understand that seat of consciousness is in the heart, but not the physical heart itself. Just like the eye basis is a support for eye-consciousness, so too, the heart basis is a support for mind consciousness.

:anjali: :buddha2:
From what I’ve read the Visuddhimagga and later commentarial texts thought it was the actual heart. It was quite a common view in the ancient world, east and west, since this is where we feel anxiety etc. The Abhidhamma texts themselves merely say “that matter which is the basis” and leaves it at that. Based on what we know today, if we were to tie consciousness to matter we would find this connection in the brain.
Visuddhimagga did not said so.
Page 447
60. 13. The heart-basis has the characteristic of being the (material) support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element. Its function is to observe them. It is manifested as the carrying of them. It is to be found in dependence on the blood, of the kind described in the treatise on mindfulness of the body (VIII.111), inside the heart. It is assisted by the primaries with their functions of upholding, etc.; it is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; and it serves as physical basis for the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element, and for the states associated with them.
It wasn't the heart (mass of flesh made of cardio muscles) per se. Rather, the seat of consciousness was located within the heart, hence "guhasayam".

:anjali: :buddha2:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:09 pm

It wasn't the heart (mass of flesh made of cardio muscles) per se. Rather, the seat of consciousness was located within the heart, hence "guhasayam".

:anjali: :buddha2:
This seems to be a distinction without a difference and still is demonstrably false. What the commentaries are doing here is proto-science. That was very well and good back then, but today we have actual science. Today we know what sensitive matter is the basis for eye consciousness, and we know that the heart hasn’t much to do with the mind. If we were to choose an organ it would be the brain. As I said the Abhidhamma leaves the matter open, as do the suttas. The commentaries tried to answer it definitively. They go it wrong. And that’s ok. Sometimes commentaries do get things wrong. They aren’t infallible, just useful.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:27 pm Ceisiwr wrote
Sounds like a corpse. Actually worse, because at least corpses are a body.
when I wrote
Samma sati teaches us how to get rid of body, feeling, perception, and mental phenomena. Arahant is devoid of these.
OK let us see...I will not bring in Phena sutta, that is too complicated for you.
Let me fetch a simple verse from Dhammapada. Surely one cannot go wrong interpreting
these simple verses.
Verse 37
Faring far, wandering alone,
bodiless,
lying in a cave, is the mind. Those who subdue it are freed from the
bond of Mara.
Do you think in the above instance, Buddha is teaching about corpses? He says bodiless???
with love :candle:
The Dhammapada verse you are referring to is talking about the mind. You haven't understood it at all. To your lager point, the Buddha still experienced feelings, consciousness, mind and the body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:26 pm The commentaries tried to answer it definitively. They go it wrong. And that’s ok. Sometimes commentaries do get things wrong. They aren’t infallible, just useful.
then entire pranjaparamita sutras are wrong in your opinion and alchemical traditions like vajrayana. Ithink Pulsar nailed it, some things are too difficult for you, unless you just want to be right here and tossing tantrum.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:04 pm
then entire pranjaparamita sutras are wrong in your opinion and alchemical traditions like vajrayana. Ithink Pulsar nailed it, some things are too difficult for you, unless you just want to be right here and tossing tantrum.
Not completely sure how that conclusion logically follows from what I said? Regardless, I don't think the Prajñāpāramitā are wrong. I agree with them on some things, not on others. I don't really know much about Vajrayāna still to this day.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:16 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:04 pm
then entire pranjaparamita sutras are wrong in your opinion and alchemical traditions like vajrayana. Ithink Pulsar nailed it, some things are too difficult for you, unless you just want to be right here and tossing tantrum.
Not completely sure how that conclusion logically follows from what I said? Regardless, I don't think the Prajñāpāramitā are wrong. I agree with them on some things, not on others. I don't really know much about Vajrayāna still to this day.
real sign wisdom heart.
wrote:The heart which is vajra does not refer to the heart
within the breast. That heart is flesh and has very little use
when compared to the vajra heart.
Ontheway
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:26 pm
Ontheway wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:09 pm

It wasn't the heart (mass of flesh made of cardio muscles) per se. Rather, the seat of consciousness was located within the heart, hence "guhasayam".

:anjali: :buddha2:
This seems to be a distinction without a difference and still is demonstrably false. What the commentaries are doing here is proto-science. That was very well and good back then, but today we have actual science. Today we know what sensitive matter is the basis for eye consciousness, and we know that the heart hasn’t much to do with the mind. If we were to choose an organ it would be the brain. As I said the Abhidhamma leaves the matter open, as do the suttas. The commentaries tried to answer it definitively. They go it wrong. And that’s ok. Sometimes commentaries do get things wrong. They aren’t infallible, just useful.
I am no doctor or surgeon. I couldn't tell whether even it is really the only brain do the thinking or perceiving in strict sense. I might just think the brain as a mass of neurones served as an "agent" to convey electromagnetic pulses. But I know it is a difficult, almost mysterious topic that I don't think I'm qualified for it.

I think you are right that both in the ancient west and east, "heart" is treated as governing part of the mind. Even today people still discuss about it.

https://cognitiontoday.com/the-heart-vs ... -need-not/

Curiously, in the Suttas (eg: Mahasatipatthana Sutta, Kayagatasati Sutta, Girimananda Sutta, Sampasadaniya Sutta, etc.), often the Buddha taught asubhanussati method, listed out only 31 types of body parts but not 32, the left out one is Matthalungam aka brain. The reason given is "because it was categorised into the group of Naharu".

Which only be added in Khuddaka Patha short verse, Patisambhidā Magga and commentaries.

In Atthakatha, Hadayavatthu is mentioned as "the seat of consciousness" and served as the physical basis for mind element and mind consciousness element, as a physical support and just to observe them. Maybe I think that the brain function is responsible for Vedana, Sanna; but manoviññāṇa and Sankhara will gain support from heart basis. Without direct knowledge, I don't think we can see the whole phenomenon clearly. Science can only solves certain amount of problems and there will be always a limit. And from time to time, more scientific knowledge about brain will be available for us.

Maybe in the future, science can proves the existence of ghosts too.

:anjali: :buddha2:
Last edited by Ontheway on Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 5A is a misinterpreted reformulation of DO

Post by Coëmgenu »

If someone habitually and constantly drinks alcohol, they will begin to form a bacteria culture in the gut that wants alcohol, only magnifying the alcohol abuse. I had a good friend who quite literally drank himself to death in his early 30s. A less extreme example is sugar addiction and the food industry. We cultivate unwholesome bacteria cultures within us from unskillful food choices. The bacteria cultures send signals to the brain saying "A Big Mac would be nice right now," even though it is objectively bad for your body. Now, they don't actually send signals that are so specific. I'm a non-specialist explaining things that I only vaguely know here, but some argue that another seat of the mind is in the gut/stomach.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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