Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

I think for the studies in Early Buddhism/EBTs, it will be better to see clearly and respect the differences and similarities between the divergent, non-identical texts and traditions, particularly between SA/SN and other versions of literature in Buddhist history.

The SA/SN collection itself also contains three different classifications/angas. Ven. Yinshun sees the gradual formation of SA/SN as corresponding to the three angas formed in sequence (the sutra-anga portion was the earliest of the three). :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:00 am According to Ven. Yinshun, Saṃyukta-āgama/Saṃyutta-nikāya was not at first being termed as nikāya or āgama, but generally named the ‘Connected Discourses’ 相應教 Saṃyukta-kathā. About the term Saṃyukta-kathā, see p. 899, note 21 in the above-mentioned paper (2020) by Choong Mun-keat.

Calling the Saṃyukta/Saṃyutta as āgama/nikāya ‘collection’ was until when the other three nikāyas/āgamas (MN/MA, DN/DA, AN/EA) were gradually developed and expanded from it (相應教 Saṃyukta-kathā). Cf. pp. 10-11 in Choong Mun-keat’s Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism (2000).
The following is the quotation, in Chapter 10, Section 4, from the book The Formation of Early Buddhist Texts by Ven Yinshun:

第四節 結說

經上來的比對研究,「四阿含」(「四部」)的成立,可得到幾點明確的認識。1.佛法的結集,起初是「修多羅」,次為「祇夜」、「記說」——「弟子所說」、「如來所說」。這三部分,為組成「雜阿含」(起初應泛稱「相應教」)的組成部分。「弟子所說」與「如來所說」,是附編於「蘊」、「處」、「因緣」、「菩提分法」——四類以下的。這是第一結集階段。在「雜阿含」三部分的集成過程中,集成以後,都可能因經文的傳出而編入,文句也逐漸長起來了。佛教界[A92]稟承佛法的宗本——「修多羅」,經「弟子所說」的學風,而展開法義的分別、抉擇、闡發、論定,形成了好多經典。結集者結集起來,就是「中阿含」;這是以僧伽、比丘為重的,對內的。將分別抉擇的成果,對外道、婆羅門,而表揚佛是正等覺者,法是善說者,適應天、魔、梵——世俗的宗教意識,與「祇夜」精神相呼應的,集為「長阿含」。「雜」、「中」、「長」,依文句的長短而得名。以(弟子所說)「如來所說」為主,以增一法而進行類集,《如是語》與《本事經》的形成,成為「九分教」之一,還在「中」、「長」——二部成立以前。但為了便於誦持,著重於一般信眾的教化,廢去「傳說」及「重頌」的形式,而進行擴大的「增壹阿含」的編集,應該比「長阿含」更遲一些。以「雜阿含」為本而次第形成四部阿含,《瑜伽師地論》的傳說,不失為正確的說明!近代的研究者,過分重視巴利文([A93]Pāli);依巴利文聖典,不能發見四部阿含集成的真相。即使以「雜阿含」的原形為最古,而不能理解為三部分(「修多羅」、「祇夜」、「記說」)的合成;不知三部分的特性,與三部阿含形成的關係,也就不能理解依「雜阿含」而次第形成四部的過程。 :candle: :reading:
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

Choong Mun-keat in p. 911 in the article “Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts” in Research on the Saṃyukta-āgama" (2020) states thus:

"This completes my response to Bhikkhu Anālayo’s (2011 and 2016) questions and doubts. ... I drew attention to a widespread failure, among Western scholars of early Buddhism, to take due account of the very substantial research findings of Master Yinshun. My hope is that the present paper will help to eliminate this blind spot by providing a brief but thought-provoking glimpse at the work of this still seriously underrated Chinese scholar."

I think scholars in Buddhist Studies may need to study carefully the works of Ven. Yinshun in the area of both the foundations and the development of Buddhism. :candle: :reading:
Pulsar
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by Pulsar »

Thinking of Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism, has anyone noticed the huge discrepancy between SN 36.31 and its agama parallel SA 483?
It is almost as if they are talking of two different spiritual paths? Do you think the difference is due the abhidhamma influence on the Pali sutta?
How could two parallels communicate different understandings of the same Buddha Dhamma?
Any help is appreciated.
Regards :candle:
asahi
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:12 pm Thinking of Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism, has anyone noticed the huge discrepancy between SN 36.31 and its agama parallel SA 483?
It is almost as if they are talking of two different spiritual paths? Do you think the difference is due the abhidhamma influence on the Pali sutta?
How could two parallels communicate different understandings of the same Buddha Dhamma?
Any help is appreciated.
Regards :candle:
FYI actually , parallel shows 2 suttas ,
SN 36.30 & SN36.31 , however , SN36.30 (about 3 type of feeling) somehow has connection to spiritual feelings ?
No bashing No gossiping
Pulsar
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by Pulsar »

asahi wrote
FYI actually , parallel shows 2 suttas ,
SN 36.30 & SN36.31 , however , SN36.30 (about 3 type of feeling) somehow has connection to spiritual feelings
Yes I am aware of two suttas here, it is as if Pali compilers generated two suttas out SA 483.
SN 36.30 does not contribute anything new at all, except repeat that there are 3 types of feelings. Only SN 36.31 contains any substantial content, but it seems pretty disorganized? and ends up implying
deliverance connected with form sphere (4 jhanas) is carnal deliverance (Samisa piti)
and
deliverance connected with the formless sphere (Arupas) is spiritual deliverance (niramisa piti)
This is the weirdest thing I've read in the Pali canon so far. It seems in order to accommodate Arupas (not Buddha's teaching) the powers that be (abhidhamma) downgraded the 4 buddhist jhanas, so its outcome becomes a carnal deliverance???? Stranger than fiction!
Do you not find it strange? Buddha attained awakening via 4 jhanas. Surely that was not a carnal deliverance.
Nothing of this sort is found in SA 483.
SA 483 (the agama parallel) has no reference to Arupas. It refers to the 4 jhanas. Did you get a chance to study SA 483 carefully? My question was "How does the Pali version compare with the original agama version?" They seem so different to me.
Regards :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

Regarding the corresponding counterparts, SA = SN (or SN = SA), check also Ven. Yinshun's CSA: https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/zh/Y0030

It will be better not just following the suttacentral.net, or Taisho version, or any others.

:reading: :candle: :buddha1:
asahi
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:36 am asahi wrote
FYI actually , parallel shows 2 suttas ,
SN 36.30 & SN36.31 , however , SN36.30 (about 3 type of feeling) somehow has connection to spiritual feelings
Yes I am aware of two suttas here, it is as if Pali compilers generated two suttas out SA 483.
SN 36.30 does not contribute anything new at all, except repeat that there are 3 types of feelings. Only SN 36.31 contains any substantial content, but it seems pretty disorganized? and ends up implying
deliverance connected with form sphere (4 jhanas) is carnal deliverance (Samisa piti)
and
deliverance connected with the formless sphere (Arupas) is spiritual deliverance (niramisa piti)
This is the weirdest thing I've read in the Pali canon so far. It seems in order to accommodate Arupas (not Buddha's teaching) the powers that be (abhidhamma) downgraded the 4 buddhist jhanas, so its outcome becomes a carnal deliverance???? Stranger than fiction!
Do you not find it strange? Buddha attained awakening via 4 jhanas. Surely that was not a carnal deliverance.
Nothing of this sort is found in SA 483.
SA 483 (the agama parallel) has no reference to Arupas. It refers to the 4 jhanas. Did you get a chance to study SA 483 carefully? My question was "How does the Pali version compare with the original agama version?" They seem so different to me.
Regards :candle:
Lets see :

① 食念:carnal craving

② 無食念:non carnal craving 1st jhana

③ 無食無食念:non carnal carnal craving
2nd jhana

④ 食樂:carnal happiness 5 cord sensual happiness


⑤ 無食樂:non carnal happiness
Here refers to 2nd jhana happiness


⑥ 無食無食樂:non carnal carnal happiness
Here refers to 3rd jhana happiness


⑦ 食捨:carnal calmness 5 cords sensual calmness

⑧ 無食捨:non carnal calmness 3rd jhana calmness


⑨ 無食無食捨:non carnal carnal calmness
4th jhana calmness

⑩ 食解脫:liberation on carnal , going beyond 5 sensual cords liberation attaining rupa dhatu


⑪ 無食解脫:non carnal liberation
Going beyond rupa dhatu attaining arupa dhatu

⑫ 無食無食解脫:non carnal carnal liberation , freedom from greed hatred ignorance attaining nibbana
No bashing No gossiping
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

asahi wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:08 am Lets see :

① 食念:carnal craving

② 無食念:non carnal craving 1st jhana

③ 無食無食念:non carnal carnal craving
2nd jhana
Choong Mun-keat in p. 128 note 67 in the following book suggests that 念 (mindfulness) should read 喜 (joy):
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thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:16 am
asahi wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:08 am Lets see :

① 食念:carnal craving

② 無食念:non carnal craving 1st jhana

③ 無食無食念:non carnal carnal craving
2nd jhana
Choong Mun-keat in p. 128 note 67 in the following book suggests that 念 (mindfulness) should read 喜 (joy):
Note: PTS SN 36. Vedana Samyutta is up to 29 suttas (not 31): SN 36.1-29.
Pulsar
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by Pulsar »

Thanks asahi for your helpfulness, but here is the thing, a Chinese sutta cannot be simply translated in this manner, esp when the teaching involves dependent origination.
The Chinese characters themselves could mean different things in different contexts. Some suttas need more than an understanding in language.

This Sutta is clearly speaking about 4 jhanas. It is important to get the drift of the sutta, which one can get simply by going over DeepL and google translations. One version tends to correct mistakes in the other. It is very time consuming.
Chinese sutta clearly speaks of 4 buddhist jhanas,
  • with foodlessness as the primary factor.
It stresses this at every step. Pali sutta is a bit messed up, it refers to 4 buddhist jhanas but
  • to the Pali compiler food means 5 sensory strands only.
Food is far more complicated than the 5 sensory strands. It involves touch, intention and vinnana.
The Chinese compiler understands that to enter the first jhana or any jhana, the meditator has to be foodless. (absolutely without any kind of desire, not tainted by polluted consciousness)
Reader of the sutta has to understand what Buddha meant by food.
Without a firm understanding of SN 12.63 (Putramansa suttta) and SN 47.42 (Origination of dukkha), SA 483 cannot be comprehended.
  • SA 483 repeats foodlessness several times
Pali compiler understands food to mean 5 sensory strands, it is an incomplete understanding. His understanding of dependent origination is different from the Chinese compiler's understanding. 

Dearest asahi: How do you understand food in the Chinese sutta? What does it mean?
How do you understand dependent origination? Without these fundamental understandings, the sutta cannot be cracked open. Chinese sutta gives me enough hints to do that. Pali sutta is not so clear in its presentation.
With love :candle:
 
asahi
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:03 am How do you understand food in the Chinese sutta? What does it mean?
How do you understand dependent origination?
Food means sustenance or nourishment .
But it is craving that sustaining beings in the cycle of samsara . With the origination of craving then came the origination of four type of foods , with the origination of foods came the origination of body . With the origination of the body then came the aging death n whole mass of sufferings . When you starve out the foods you are liberated . Dependent origination come into being and supported by these foods .
No bashing No gossiping
Pulsar
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by Pulsar »

asahi wrote
Food means sustenance or nourishment .
this is true, but many times we fail to see that we are sustained by touch/contact/phassa.
We are like skinned cows SN 12.63, wherever we lean on, we are attacked by airy flies, watery worms, things sitting on walls etc, putramansa implies this. Flies, worms is a metaphor for cruel, malicious or unwholesome thoughts.
The truth is even when we lean on a sensual thought to support the next moment, we let in the sensory world. That ends up giving rise to feeling, intention, and a polluted consciousness. The whole point of satipatthana is to arrest this process.
You wrote
But it is craving that sustaining beings in the cycle of samsara
Where is that craving located? There is no craving without a polluted consciousness. Arahant has no craving, since his consciousness is safe from such travails.
You wrote
With the origination of craving then came the origination of four type of foods , with the origination of foods came the origination of body.
Can you elaborate on the word body? Is it a physical entity or mental entity?
I am pretty sure SN 47.42 sutta on Samudaya of Dukkha, in its first establishment of mindfulness is referring to variegated rupas from the different sensory realms (eye, ear, nose, tongue, touch, imagination) arising in the mind, when it talks of body.
It is true that the body is derived from four primary elements. But the rupa itself in this context is a mental event. This is the biggest problem (mental proliferation) that Buddha addressed. His teaching is targeted at ending mental proliferation.
You wrote
Dependent origination come into being and supported by these foods .
It is true that craving for foods is our problem. Can you break it down? What does the mind crave for, to begin with? What appears on the scene of DO before aging and death come into play?
Once something is born there is little we can do about it. However if we stop the birth, is the problem not solved? Why think of aging and death, when one lives the deathless?
I love engaging with you when I have the time.
With love :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw »

thomaslaw wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:16 am
The following is the quotation, in Chapter 10, Section 4, from the book The Formation of Early Buddhist Texts by Ven Yinshun:

經上來的比對研究,... 近代的研究者,過分重視巴利文 (Pāli);依巴利文聖典,不能發見四部阿含集成的真相。即使以「雜阿含」的原形為最古,而不能理解為三部分(「修多羅」、「祇夜」、「記說」)的合成;不知三部分的特性,與三部阿含形成的關係,也就不能理解依「雜阿含」而次第形成四部的過程。
Choong Mun-keat states: "If one only considers and emphasises Pāli sources, without comparing them with the Chinese versions, then one is studying Pāli Buddhism, not early Buddhism. For the study of early Buddhism it is essential to pay attention to both the Pāli and the Chinese versions of the early canon." (p. ix The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism)
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asahi
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Re: Ven. Yinshun: Samyutta/Samyukta Buddhism

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:41 pm Where is that craving located? There is no craving without a polluted consciousness.
What is polluted consciousness ?
Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:41 pm Can you elaborate on the word body? Is it a physical entity or mental entity?
A group comprises of the six sense bases .

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:41 pm It is true that the body is derived from four primary elements. But the rupa itself in this context is a mental event. This is the biggest problem (mental proliferation) that Buddha addressed. His teaching is targeted at ending mental proliferation.
Papanca is not just about mental processes , it is about how in the processes it give rise to the sense of a self thus the "drifting" or "carried-away" without restraining causing the identification on the objects .

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:41 pm It is true that craving for foods is our problem. Can you break it down? What does the mind crave for, to begin with? What appears on the scene of DO before aging and death come into play?
Once something is born there is little we can do about it. However if we stop the birth, is the problem not solved? Why think of aging and death, when one lives the deathless?
The mind craves for food of sensuality n the rest . When the sense of self appear there is identification which cause birth arises . Ultimately , birth never arise , thus there is no death .
No bashing No gossiping
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