Alexander Wynne: Sariputta or Kaccāna? A preliminary study of two early Buddhist philosophies of mind and meditation

[zerotime]

Basically this is what Buddha said to Bahia, which is repeated in many suttas, 'Bare Cognition' or 'Vinnana Matta' as taught to Bahia and Malunkyaputta, not "bare awareness" as discussed in the Burmese Vipassana tradition, not a teaching of the Buddha.
The truth is as simple as MN 18 and Bahia sutta, but too much simplicity, daunts some.

indeed. The burmese vipassana tradition is a wonderful effort in such direction although still there are more things to extract. For some reason that second branch from the Buddha teaching to arhanthood it was blurred through the History, until nobody knows exactly what it was.
It is a nice enterprise seeing some focus there trying to recompose and clarify the Buddha teaching.

Inside Kitagiri Sutta MN.70 the Buddha explain the 7 different types of individuals and He clearly taught there are two types of arhants ("his fermentations are ended"):

- "And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.

- "And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment.

[Mr. Seek]

By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.

[coconut]

By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.

Not really a fan of his work I've seen thus far, but does he have any meditation specific articles and teachings?

[Mr. Seek]

By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.

Not really a fan of his work I've seen thus far, but does he have any meditation specific articles and teachings?

I'm not familiar with the rest of his work. Only just recently came across his OCBS lectures titled 'Early Buddhist Meditation: A Philosophical Investigation' on Soundcloud and YouTube, which I pointed to in my earlier post. Basically in these lectures he explains away all of the confusion surrounding Buddhist meditation, mindfulness, and doctrine as a whole, whilst trying to find out what the original Buddhist 'practice' was and wasn't. Can't really explain it. It's like he's making an outline of the entire sutta pitaka and drawing a map, saying which stuff makes sense and which doesn't. His arguements seem spot on and from my understanding his conclusions are in line with the 8 qualities of the teachings as described in the Saṅkhitta Sutta, AN 8:53.

[AlexBrains92]

By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.

[Pulsar]

Coconut wrote

Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:50 pm
By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.
Not really a fan of his work I've seen thus far, but does he have any meditation specific articles and teachings?

Dear coconut, that is a strange question.

Does A Wynne have any meditation specific articles?

Is not the entire lecture series meditation specific?
They come with lecture notes. Have you not listened to those?
It is about early Buddhist meditation, and nothing else. In fact this lecture series is the best one can find on the subject on the internet.
It is nice to meet another person (Mr Seek) who values A. Wynne's great scholarship.
With love

[coconut]

Coconut wrote

Mr. Seek wrote: ↑Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:50 pm
By and large, I recommend to anyone interested in early Buddhist practice to listen to Alex Wynne's lectures on the subject (found on the OCBS' soundcloud, as well as on YouTube). They're close to 5 hours in total. Truly remarkable stuff that may have to be listened a couple of times to be digested fully. Also, I recommend reading the PDF article on the subject, which is linked in this topic and can be found via Google. But do listen to the lectures first--they're better, more detailed.

This stuff has completely flipped my already-unorthodox understanding of early Buddhism and made the teachings much more clear. Trying to collect all the pieces of the missing puzzle right now by skimming through the rest of the sutta pitaka and taking notes. Listening to the lectures a third time. In the meanwhile I'm experimenting with the actual suggested method of practice.
Not really a fan of his work I've seen thus far, but does he have any meditation specific articles and teachings?

Dear coconut, that is a strange question.

Does A Wynne have any meditation specific articles?

Is not the entire lecture series meditation specific?
They come with lecture notes. Have you not listened to those?
It is about early Buddhist meditation, and nothing else. In fact this lecture series is the best one can find on the subject on the internet.
It is nice to meet another person (Mr Seek) who values A. Wynne's great scholarship.
With love

I meant like basic meditation instructions without all the philosophising. Yes, as I wrote, I heard his talks, that's why I asked my question.

[Ceisiwr]

Basically this is what Buddha said to Bahia, which is repeated in many suttas, 'Bare Cognition' or 'Vinnana Matta' as taught to Bahia and Malunkyaputta, not "bare awareness" as discussed in the Burmese Vipassana tradition, not a teaching of the Buddha.
The truth is as simple as MN 18 and Bahia sutta, but too much simplicity, daunts some.

indeed. The burmese vipassana tradition is a wonderful effort in such direction although still there are more things to extract. For some reason that second branch from the Buddha teaching to arhanthood it was blurred through the History, until nobody knows exactly what it was.
It is a nice enterprise seeing some focus there trying to recompose and clarify the Buddha teaching.

Inside Kitagiri Sutta MN.70 the Buddha explain the 7 different types of individuals and He clearly taught there are two types of arhants ("his fermentations are ended"):

- "And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.

- "And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment.

The one Arahant there has all 8 attainments, the 2nd only the 1st 4 Jhanas.

[Ceisiwr]

A new edition to the debate worth a read, where he challenges some of Ven. Analaylo's arguments:

"Further thoughts on the 'two path thesis'

"If some canonical discourses post-date the Buddha; if arguments about calm and insight are recorded in them; and if the formless meditations were at the heart of this dispute, how else are SN 12.68, SN 12.70 and AN 6.46 to be seen, if not as relics of a creative and occasionally fractious period? The context and content of the texts could hardly be clearer: all refer to disagreements, all contain ample evidence for liberation as a kind of doctrinal knowledge, and all assume that the formless spheres comprised a different path to liberation. The early debate between calm and insight should thus be understood as a debate between calm in the sense of the formless path to liberation, and between insight in the sense of contemplating not-self and/or dependent origination."

https://www.academia.edu/39483577/Furth ... ath_thesis

"To this we can add the certainty that after the Buddha’s death, Buddhist thought did not stand still. Buddhists were argumentative, and disagreements would inevitably have arisen."

Well he is 100% correct there

[Mr. Seek]

Thanks for the info Ceisiwr! I'll give that a read. Also, I just found another link for said article, PDF is available for download without the need to login: http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/194

[coconut]

Thanks for the info Ceisiwr! I'll give that a read. Also, I just found another link for said article, PDF is available for download without the need to login: http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/194

It's a pretty bad article, and an argument over nothing, which is what I don't like about Wynne's style.

The suttas are quite clear that a pannavimutti attainer doesn't require formless jhanas, and usually only attains the only abhinna needed that is Supermundane, which is maha-abhinata. The other abhinnas are not supermundane so even non-ariyas can attain them.

It's still one path.

As Bhante Punnaji said, the Buddha gave us one shortcut, and that is we don't need to attain the formless jhanas.

He explains it at the 14 minute mark

[Ceisiwr]

Thanks for the info Ceisiwr! I'll give that a read. Also, I just found another link for said article, PDF is available for download without the need to login: http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/article/view/194

You're welcome.

[Coëmgenu]

[...]

Venerable Punnaji believes that the difference between a rock and a Buddha is that a Buddha has metabolism and a rock does not. Neither of them truly have a mind. Do you agree?

[Pulsar]

zerotime wrote referring to an earlier comment of mine

Pulsar wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:03 pm
Basically this is what Buddha said to Bahia, which is repeated in many suttas, 'Bare Cognition' or 'Vinnana Matta' as taught to Bahia and Malunkyaputta, not "bare awareness" as discussed in the Burmese Vipassana tradition, not a teaching of the Buddha.
The truth is as simple as MN 18 and Bahia sutta, but too much simplicity, daunts some.

to which s/he replied

indeed. The burmese vipassana tradition is a wonderful effort in such direction although still there are more things to extract. For some reason that second branch from the Buddha teaching to arhanthood it was blurred through the History, until nobody knows exactly what it was.
It is a nice enterprise seeing some focus there trying to recompose and clarify the Buddha teaching.

I apologise for the simplicity of my comment, since simple things can also be misinterpreted.
My main intention was to point out the world of difference between these similar sounding words. i.e.
Bare cognition of Alexander Wynne and Bare Awareness found in Burmese vipassana. The latter emerged out of the two main Satipatthana suttas which scholars say were fabricated at the second council.
I have commented on this several times in different places, really don't wish to get into it.
I am here because

• Vinnana Matta or bare cognition

appeals to me, as the way Buddha explained early buddhist meditation. Scholars such as Ven. Sujatho has already addressed the

• issues with the Burmese vipassana which he has labelled Vipassanavada.

I can summarize it for you, but it will eat up my time. Sutta central is the go to... for this matter.
You also wrote

Inside Kitagiri Sutta MN.70 the Buddha explain the 7 different types of individuals and He clearly taught there are two types of arhants ("his fermentations are ended"):

I had addressed this issue several months ago on my thread on "Jhanas. Misconceptions regarding the four rupa jhanas", my take on it.
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 12#p520212
If you prefer to discuss this now, perhaps a new thread is more appropriate.
With love

[Pulsar]

Coconut you surprise me. you wrote regarding A. Wynne's writing

It's a pretty bad article, and an argument over nothing, which is what I don't like about Wynne's style.

This article you are referring to, I have not read it, but you appear to not like Wynne's style.
What aspect of his style do you not like? In one of the videos, he explains how every sutta in Parayanavagga and Atthakavagga leads to the idea of "Bare Cognition" (2nd lecture). I thought that was brilliant.
Then you present us with Bhante Punnaji. Are you serious?
You write

As Bhante Punnaji said, the Buddha gave us one shortcut, and that is we don't need to attain the formless jhanas.
He explains it at the 14 minute mark

To me it sounds like Rev. punnaji is relating a mythical tale, and the questioner on the video, is looking on with disbelief.
But this does not surprise me, it is just that you appear to buy it, and that surprises me.
Elsewhere you quoted from Pasadika sutta, as if you were convinced by its content. What a contradiction!
As for mythology, Ven. Sujatho at SC, mentioned there are instances of mythology in the Pali canon.
But we must be careful not to carry the myth too far. I don't think myth was Buddha's intention, but just this end of suffering. Instances of myth are a story telling device.
With love