Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

[DooDoot]

If 3 sankhārā, can u explain more? Abhidhammå can.

Abhidhammå cannot explain because Abhidhammå include all sankhara into sankhara of dependent origination. Therefore, in Vibhanga, Abhidhammå lists many types of sankhara.

The word 'sankhara' is used many times with many different meanings in the Suttas. But for Dependent Origination, it only has three meanings, as the Buddha said.

Regards

[DooDoot]

Katamaṁ satibalaṁ? Pamāde na kampatīti—satibalaṁ. Sahajātānaṁ dhammānaṁ upatthambhanaṭṭhena satibalaṁ …pe… nirodhe patiṭṭhāpakaṭṭhena satibalaṁ. Idaṁ satibalaṁ.

Note: "dhamma" above does not mean "ideas". It means the applied "principles" of the teachings.

[Gwi]

Now turning to Anapanasati, the following from the Paṭisambhidāmagga about Step 3....

In addition, it appears the above introduces the term "nimitta" into Anapanasati (which appears not found in the Suttas), as follows:

Katamo rūpakāyo? Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ, assāso ca passāso ca, nimittañca upanibandhanā, ye ca vuccanti kāyasaṅkhārā— ayaṁ rūpakāyo.

Therefore, the "rupakaya" ("physical group") includes "nimitta", namely, breathing as the "sign" of meditation.

Jhānå from anapanasati

[DooDoot]

Jhānå from anapanasati

Step 3 of Anapanasati is not about jhana. The "sign" obviously refers to the breathing in Step 3. Thanks

[DooDoot]

Strange teaching... 4th satipatthana does not exclude the body, feelings & mind....



Note: again "ideas" is poor translation.

[Gwi]

If 3 sankhārā, can u explain more? Abhidhammå can.

Abhidhammå cannot explain because Abhidhammå include all sankhara into sankhara of dependent origination. Therefore, in Vibhanga, Abhidhammå lists many types of sankhara.

The word 'sankhara' is used many times with many different meanings in the Suttas. But for Dependent Origination, it only has three meanings, as the Buddha said.

Regards

U wanna say sankhārå have many meaning
Or 3, but can u explain it? I know 3 sankhārā
In Suttå, but explain more.

Abhidhammå can

[DooDoot]

Abhidhammå can

I already explained the answer to you. The Abhidhamma lists many sankharas but lists them in the wrong place and in the wrong way. Not all sankhara fit into the 2nd condition of Dependent Origination. The Abhidhamma cannot explain Dependent Origination.

Since you are unable to provide a detailed reply, please refrain from the above style of posting. Thank you

[DooDoot]

WOW. I browsed the Paṭisambhidāmagga. While it contains much unnecessary papanca, unlike the Visiddhimagga, it certainly is very impressive & coherent. It is obviously a commentary on the Suttas and follows the Suttas very closely (unlike the Abhidhamma & Visiddhimagga, which departs into their own interpretations).

Because i was so impressed, I will review my critique of Dependent Origination in the Paṭisambhidāmagga at a later time.

Time to go and do some solitude bush walking under the moon.

[thomaslaw]

Note: SN 12.51 appears fake sutta for many reasons.

What are the many reasons?

I do not see any major issues of the sutta, SN 12.51.

[DooDoot]

What are the many reasons?

I do not see any major issues of the sutta, SN 12.51.

Many reasons. Quickly (since I wish to depart):

1. SN 12.51, after lots of papanca about sankkhara, eventually says the demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations are types of upadana. It says when these formation are given up, there is no more upadana, thus the monk attains Nibbana, as follows:

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

The Pali words for generate or fashion above are abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto, which refer exclusively to thinking or sankhara khandha. However, from SN 12.2, kayasankharo means "breathing" and "cittasankharo" means perception & feelings. These are not abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto.

2. The Paṭisambhidāmagga says demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together (section on Voidness, I already posted, below). Therefore, they cannot be sankhara of 2nd condition because the word "sankhara" here in the suttas is the only word from the 12 links that is plural. In other words, per Dependent Origination in SN 12.2, the kaya (breathing), vaci (thought) & citta sankharo (perception & feeling) can each arise simultaneously together in one mind moment. But demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together in one mind moment.

3. The above appears linguistically supported by Abhidhamma, which it is explanation of Dependent Origination changes the word "sankhara" from plural to singular. Thus, i guess, Abhidhamma is saying only one of these demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable sankhara can arise in one mind moment (which is correct).

It appears SN 12.51 is Abhidhamma placed into the Suttas at a later time. It appears a sole unique sutta in the Suttas. For me, it contains too many smoking guns, per the above.

Regards

[Gwi]

The meaning of dukkha:

Dukkhaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa pīḷanaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa saṅkhataṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa santāpaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa vipariṇāmaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā.

santāpa
masculine
heat; torment; grief

pīḷana
neuter
oppression; injury; damage

Note: pīḷana appears not found in any suttas. If so, unlikely Sariputta used the word.

Note: vipariṇāma is not the meaning of dukkha. The above sounds wrong. For example, in SN 22.1, the Arahant Sariputta himself said vipariṇāma is only dukkha when there is attachment to vipariṇāma and that non-attachment to vipariṇāma is not dukkha. It seems impossible Sariputta would speak sloppy as quoted above.

What is a defenition of dukkhå in MN 141?

"Paṭipīḷanaṃ" in Vinayå same meaning
As pīḷanaṃ

[Gwi]

What are the many reasons?

I do not see any major issues of the sutta, SN 12.51.

Many reasons. Quickly (since I wish to depart):

1. SN 12.51, after lots of papanca about sankkhara, eventually says the demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations are types of upadana. It says when these formation are given up, there is no more upadana, thus the monk attains Nibbana, as follows:

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

The Pali words for generate or fashion above are abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto, which refer exclusively to thinking or sankhara khandha. However, from SN 12.2, kayasankharo means "breathing" and "cittasankharo" means perception & feelings. These are not abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto.

2. The Paṭisambhidāmagga says demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together (section on Voidness, I already posted, below). Therefore, they cannot be sankhara of 2nd condition because the word "sankhara" here in the suttas is the only word from the 12 links that is plural. In other words, per Dependent Origination in SN 12.2, the kaya (breathing), vaci (thought) & citta sankharo (perception & feeling) can each arise simultaneously together in one mind moment. But demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together in one mind moment.

3. The above appears linguistically supported by Abhidhamma, which it is explanation of Dependent Origination changes the word "sankhara" from plural to singular. Thus, i guess, Abhidhamma is saying only one of these demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable sankhara can arise in one mind moment (which is correct).

It appears SN 12.51 is Abhidhamma placed into the Suttas at a later time. It appears a sole unique sutta in the Suttas. For me, it contains too many smoking guns, per the above.

Regards

Abhidhammå can explain Dependent Origination.
U cant explain 3 sankhārā more, u need Abhidhammå.

Mr. Speculation, u need to learning Abhidhammå.
i suggest Abhidhammatthasanggahå just volume 1.


SN 12.51 have no problem.
The problem is ur speculations.

[Ontheway]

What are the many reasons?

I do not see any major issues of the sutta, SN 12.51.

Many reasons. Quickly (since I wish to depart):

1. SN 12.51, after lots of papanca about sankkhara, eventually says the demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations are types of upadana. It says when these formation are given up, there is no more upadana, thus the monk attains Nibbana, as follows:

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

The Pali words for generate or fashion above are abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto, which refer exclusively to thinking or sankhara khandha. However, from SN 12.2, kayasankharo means "breathing" and "cittasankharo" means perception & feelings. These are not abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto.

2. The Paṭisambhidāmagga says demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together (section on Voidness, I already posted, below). Therefore, they cannot be sankhara of 2nd condition because the word "sankhara" here in the suttas is the only word from the 12 links that is plural. In other words, per Dependent Origination in SN 12.2, the kaya (breathing), vaci (thought) & citta sankharo (perception & feeling) can each arise simultaneously together in one mind moment. But demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together in one mind moment.

3. The above appears linguistically supported by Abhidhamma, which it is explanation of Dependent Origination changes the word "sankhara" from plural to singular. Thus, i guess, Abhidhamma is saying only one of these demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable sankhara can arise in one mind moment (which is correct).

It appears SN 12.51 is Abhidhamma placed into the Suttas at a later time. It appears a sole unique sutta in the Suttas. For me, it contains too many smoking guns, per the above.

Regards

Abhidhammå can explain Dependent Origination.
U cant explain 3 sankhārā more, u need Abhidhammå.

Mr. Speculation, u need to learning Abhidhammå.
i suggest Abhidhammatthasanggahå just volume 1.


SN 12.51 have no problem.
The problem is ur speculations.

Hi Gwi, maybe you are interested in this video.
I don't know much Indonesian though.

[Gwi]

Many reasons. Quickly (since I wish to depart):

1. SN 12.51, after lots of papanca about sankkhara, eventually says the demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations are types of upadana. It says when these formation are given up, there is no more upadana, thus the monk attains Nibbana, as follows:


The Pali words for generate or fashion above are abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto, which refer exclusively to thinking or sankhara khandha. However, from SN 12.2, kayasankharo means "breathing" and "cittasankharo" means perception & feelings. These are not abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto.

2. The Paṭisambhidāmagga says demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together (section on Voidness, I already posted, below). Therefore, they cannot be sankhara of 2nd condition because the word "sankhara" here in the suttas is the only word from the 12 links that is plural. In other words, per Dependent Origination in SN 12.2, the kaya (breathing), vaci (thought) & citta sankharo (perception & feeling) can each arise simultaneously together in one mind moment. But demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations cannot arise together in one mind moment.

3. The above appears linguistically supported by Abhidhamma, which it is explanation of Dependent Origination changes the word "sankhara" from plural to singular. Thus, i guess, Abhidhamma is saying only one of these demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable sankhara can arise in one mind moment (which is correct).

It appears SN 12.51 is Abhidhamma placed into the Suttas at a later time. It appears a sole unique sutta in the Suttas. For me, it contains too many smoking guns, per the above.

Regards

Abhidhammå can explain Dependent Origination.
U cant explain 3 sankhārā more, u need Abhidhammå.

Mr. Speculation, u need to learning Abhidhammå.
i suggest Abhidhammatthasanggahå just volume 1.


SN 12.51 have no problem.
The problem is ur speculations.

Hi Gwi, maybe you are interested in this video.
I don't know much Indonesian though.

09:52--09:59 "Memahami Suttå saja tanpa Abhidhammå
maka pemahamannya tidak akan sempurna."
(Just understand Suttå without Abhidhammå,
The understanding won't be perfect).
By: Bhante Khemindattherå

[thomaslaw]

What are the many reasons?

I do not see any major issues of the sutta, SN 12.51.

Many reasons. Quickly (since I wish to depart):

1. SN 12.51, after lots of papanca about sankkhara, eventually says the demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable formations are types of upadana. It says when these formation are given up, there is no more upadana, thus the monk attains Nibbana, as follows:

But when a bhikkhu has abandoned ignorance and aroused true knowledge, then, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge, he does not generate a meritorious volitional formation, or a demeritorious volitional formation, or an imperturbable volitional formation. Since he does not generate or fashion volitional formations, he does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Not being agitated, he personally attains Nibbāna.

The Pali words for generate or fashion above are abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto, which refer exclusively to thinking or sankhara khandha. However, from SN 12.2, kayasankharo means "breathing" and "cittasankharo" means perception & feelings. These are not abhisaṅkharonto & abhisañcetayanto.

...

3. The above appears linguistically supported by Abhidhamma, which it is explanation of Dependent Origination changes the word "sankhara" from plural to singular. Thus, i guess, Abhidhamma is saying only one of these demeritorious, meritorious & imperturbable sankhara can arise in one mind moment (which is correct).

It appears SN 12.51 is Abhidhamma placed into the Suttas at a later time. It appears a sole unique sutta in the Suttas. For me, it contains too many smoking guns, per the above.

Regards

Both sankhara khandha (in the five khandhas) and the three sankharas (body, speech, and mind in SN 12.2) are fine in meaning and in practice indicated in the SN/SA suttas.