Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
thomaslaw
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by thomaslaw »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:54 pm 09:52--09:59 "Memahami Suttå saja tanpa Abhidhammå
maka pemahamannya tidak akan sempurna."
(Just understand Suttå without Abhidhammå,
The understanding won't be perfect).
By: Bhante Khemindattherå
:bow:
Make sure you are able to see clearly and respect the similarities and differences between Sutta and Abhidhamma.
See: viewtopic.php?f=18&p=642363#p642363

and

Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sūtrāṅga portion of the Pāli Saṃyutta-Nikāya and the Chinese Saṃyuktāgama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000).
https://www.academia.edu/12359515/The_F ... ukta-agama

https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... n-keat.pdf

:reading: :buddha1:
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:25 pm Both sankhara khandha (in the five khandhas) and the three sankharas (body, speech, and mind in SN 12.2) are fine in meaning and in practice indicated in the SN/SA suttas. :reading: :buddha1:
Thanks but the suttas only defined kaya, vaci & citta sankharo in one way. Kaya sankharo is the breathing (SN 41.6; MN 44). In the practise of Anapanasati, it can be clearly seen whenever a non-thinking asava emerges from the void of clear mind, the 1st thing that asava does is agitate the breathing. If Anapanasati cannot be practised, then this reality cannot be discerned. Kaya sankharo (nominative case) in dependent origination appears to mean the breathing, as the suttas define.

As for when kaya sankharam (accusative case) is used with mano sankaram, the meaning is different. This context refers to kamma. But in Dependent Origination, kamma or intention (cetana) first occurs at nama-rupa.

Regards :reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:23 am Because i was so impressed, I will review my critique of Dependent Origination in the Paṭisambhidāmagga at a later time.
I have read the very short paṭiccasamuppāda section of the Paṭisambhidāmagga and the following are my personal reasons for asserting Venerable Sariputta did not speak this:

1. Here, the word "hetu" is introduced as a synonym for "paccaya" into Dependent Origination. The Buddha thus Sariputta would not speak like this because the words "hetu" & "paccaya" are not synonymous. For example, in SN 22.82, nama-rupa is the hetu (cause) of consciousness; where as in SN 12.67, nama-rupa is a condition (paccaya) for consciousness &, also, consciousness is a condition (paccaya) for nama-rupa. But consciousness can never be a hetu (cause) of nama-rupa because consciousness cannot physically create the mind-body.

2. The notion of upapattibhava is introduced into paṭiccasamuppāda. I think this is problematic because the word "upapatti" and its verbs, such as "upapajjati" & "upapanna" are generally used in mundane teachings. Yet the Paṭisambhidāmagga later correctly says the Four Noble Truths are supramundane. However, the Paṭisambhidāmagga appears to not say paṭiccasamuppāda is supramundane; even though paṭiccasamuppāda is the four noble truths (AN 3.61). Due to also introducing the notions of "kammabhava" & "upapattibhava" into paṭiccasamuppāda, it appears the Paṭisambhidāmagga transformed paṭiccasamuppāda into a mundane dhamma. Sariputtta would not do this.

3. The fact paṭiccasamuppāda is such a detailed teaching, yet the Paṭisambhidāmagga offers a very brief teaching about it; unlike the Paṭisambhidāmagga's very lengthy teachings on other core subjects, appears to show it is impossible that Sariputta spoke the Paṭisambhidāmagga.

4. In fact, MN 9 is the most detailed teaching on paṭiccasamuppāda in the Suttas, where Sariputta introduced the "asava" in the condition of ignorance. Since the Paṭisambhidāmagga does not do this, appears to show the Paṭisambhidāmagga is not related to Sariputta.

:spy:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
thomaslaw
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:32 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:25 pm Both sankhara khandha (in the five khandhas) and the three sankharas (body, speech, and mind in SN 12.2) are fine in meaning and in practice indicated in the SN/SA suttas. :reading: :buddha1:
Thanks but the suttas only defined kaya, vaci & citta sankharo in one way. Kaya sankharo is the breathing (SN 41.6; MN 44). In the practise of Anapanasati, it can be clearly seen whenever a non-thinking asava emerges from the void of clear mind, the 1st thing that asava does is agitate the breathing. If Anapanasati cannot be practised, then this reality cannot be discerned. Kaya sankharo (nominative case) in dependent origination appears to mean the breathing, as the suttas define.

As for when kaya sankharam (accusative case) is used with mano sankaram, the meaning is different. This context refers to kamma. But in Dependent Origination, kamma or intention (cetana) first occurs at nama-rupa.

Regards :reading:
Note: SN 41. Citta Samyutta belongs to Vyakarana-anga (Sravaka) portion of SN/SA (see pp. 21, 245, 250 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:42 am
Purimakammabhavasmiṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṁ idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā idhupapattibhavasmiṁ purekatassa kammassa paccayā.

Idha paripakkattā āyatanānaṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā idha kammabhavasmiṁ āyatiṁ paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Āyatiṁ paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā āyatiṁ upapattibhavasmiṁ idha katassa kammassa paccayā. Itime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe tisandhiṁ vīsatiyā ākārehi paṭiccasamuppādaṁ jānāti passati aññāti paṭivijjhati. Taṁ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṁ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati— “paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ”.

Patisambhidamagga
Returning to the above:

1. It does not appear to implicitly say dependent origination occurs over three life-times; however it may infer it.

2. It appears incorrect appearing to say ignorance, sankhara, craving, attachment & becoming are unwholesome kammabhava dhammas that cause "re-linking" of consciousness; because in the Suttas, intention & attention are also unwholesome dhammas at nama-rupa. In fact, jati & marana are also inherently unwholesome, but the Patisambhidamagga ignores these.

3. The Suttas do not appear to say "sankhara" is inherently unwholesome befcause Sariputta in MN 9 defines sankhara as kaya (breathin), vaci (thought) and citta (perception & feeling) sankharo.

4. In summary, the Buddha never appeared to teach Dependent Origination as past cause, present result, present cause, future result. For example, MN 38 says Dependent Origination first occurs only when a child reaches a certain age:
“When he grows up and his faculties mature, the child plays at such games as toy ploughs, tipcat, somersaults, toy windmills, toy measures, toy carts, and a toy bow and arrow.

“When he grows up and his faculties mature still further, the youth enjoys himself provided and endowed with the five cords of sensual pleasure, with forms cognizable by the eye… sounds cognizable by the ear…odours cognizable by the nose… flavours cognizable by the tongue…tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust.

“On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
The above appears unrelated to the past.

Anyway, I have seen enough. The Patisambhidamagga appears an amazing coherent work closely following the Suttas, except for Dependent Origination (plus has some dodgy ideas about Anapanasati). :reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:27 am Note: SN 41. Citta Samyutta belongs to Vyakarana-anga (Sravaka) portion of SN/SA (see pp. 21, 245, 250 in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism).
Thanks but no thanks. The Suttas say Dhamma is to be verified in the here & now via meditation. Kind regards. :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:11 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:42 am
Purimakammabhavasmiṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṁ idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā idhupapattibhavasmiṁ purekatassa kammassa paccayā.

Idha paripakkattā āyatanānaṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā idha kammabhavasmiṁ āyatiṁ paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Āyatiṁ paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā āyatiṁ upapattibhavasmiṁ idha katassa kammassa paccayā. Itime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe tisandhiṁ vīsatiyā ākārehi paṭiccasamuppādaṁ jānāti passati aññāti paṭivijjhati. Taṁ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṁ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati— “paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ”.

Patisambhidamagga
Returning to the above:

1. It does not appear to implicitly say dependent origination occurs over three life-times; however it may infer it.

2. It appears incorrect appearing to say ignorance, sankhara, craving, attachment & becoming are unwholesome kammabhava dhammas that cause "re-linking" of consciousness; because in the Suttas, intention & attention are also unwholesome dhammas at nama-rupa. In fact, jati & marana are also inherently unwholesome, but the Patisambhidamagga ignores these.

3. The Suttas do not appear to say "sankhara" is inherently unwholesome befcause Sariputta in MN 9 defines sankhara as kaya (breathin), vaci (thought) and citta (perception & feeling) sankharo.

4. In summary, the Buddha never appeared to teach Dependent Origination as past cause, present result, present cause, future result. For example, MN 38 says Dependent Origination first occurs only when a child reaches a certain age:
“When he grows up and his faculties mature, the child plays at such games as toy ploughs, tipcat, somersaults, toy windmills, toy measures, toy carts, and a toy bow and arrow.

“When he grows up and his faculties mature still further, the youth enjoys himself provided and endowed with the five cords of sensual pleasure, with forms cognizable by the eye… sounds cognizable by the ear…odours cognizable by the nose… flavours cognizable by the tongue…tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable and likeable, connected with sensual desire, and provocative of lust.

“On seeing a form with the eye, he lusts after it if it is pleasing; he dislikes it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body unestablished, with a limited mind, and he does not understand as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Engaged as he is in favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—he delights in that feeling, welcomes it, and remains holding to it. As he does so, delight arises in him. Now delight in feelings is clinging. With his clinging as condition, being comes to be; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
The above appears unrelated to the past.

Anyway, I have seen enough. The Patisambhidamagga appears an amazing coherent work closely following the Suttas, except for Dependent Origination (plus has some dodgy ideas about Anapanasati). :reading:


Can someone become a Sotāpannå
Just learning Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Without other Suttå, Vinayå, and Abhidhammå.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
thomaslaw
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:14 am The Suttas say Dhamma is to be verified in the here & now via meditation. Kind regards. :thanks:
Good on you! :twothumbsup:
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:17 am Can someone become a Sotāpannå
Just learning Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Without other Suttå, Vinayå, and Abhidhammå.
Yes, as follows:
Image
But, in my conviction, Paṭisambhidāmaggå will cause confusion about Dependent Origination. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:11 pm
Gwi wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:17 am Can someone become a Sotāpannå
Just learning Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Without other Suttå, Vinayå, and Abhidhammå.
Yes, as follows:
Image
But, in my conviction, Paṭisambhidāmaggå will cause confusion about Dependent Origination. :smile:

Source: The Great Chronicle of Buddhas (vol. 2)
Attachments
Screenshot_20210921-112037.jpg
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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