Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:42 am
Purimakammabhavasmiṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṁ idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā idhupapattibhavasmiṁ purekatassa kammassa paccayā.

Idha paripakkattā āyatanānaṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā idha kammabhavasmiṁ āyatiṁ paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Āyatiṁ paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā āyatiṁ upapattibhavasmiṁ idha katassa kammassa paccayā. Itime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe tisandhiṁ vīsatiyā ākārehi paṭiccasamuppādaṁ jānāti passati aññāti paṭivijjhati. Taṁ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṁ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati— “paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ”.

Patisambhidamagga
What is interesting about the Patisambhidamagga paragraphs above is:

1. The Patisambhidamagga was placed into the Suttas; into the KN.

2. Then it appears the Patisambhidamagga concepts above (such as kammabhava, upapattibhava and patisandhi) are then found in the Abhidhamma (Vibhanga & Patthana), where the Abhidhamma Vibhanga claims at least two of these concepts are from the Suttas (even though the concepts appear not spoken by the Buddha because they appear to only exist in the Patisambhidamagga).

3. Then these same concepts (such as kammabhava, upapattibhava and patisandhi) appear in the Visuddhimagga.

4. Then you call your doctrinal sect that uses these new concepts: "Theravada: Doctrine of the Elders".

Wow - really neat way of concocting new doctrines; but it appears this is 'Theravada'. The Abhidhamma says about "bhava" in Dependent Origination in the Suttas:
Abidhamma wrote:Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Bhavo duvidhena— atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo.

Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ vuccati “kammabhavo”. Sabbampi bhavagāmikammaṁ kammabhavo.

Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.

Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

Therein what is “because of attachment becoming arises”? Becoming by way of twofold division: Is action-becoming; is resultant-becoming.

Therein what is action-becoming? Activity producing good (resultant), activity producing bad (resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant). This is called action-becoming. Also all action leading to becoming is action-becoming.

Therein what is resultant-becoming? Becoming (in the plane of) desire, becoming (in the plane of) form, becoming (in the) formless (plane), perception-becoming, non-perception-becoming, neither perception nor non-perception-becoming, single aggregate becoming, four aggregate becoming, five aggregate becoming. This is called resultant-becoming.

This is called “because of attachment becoming arises”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/thittila
Compare the above to the real Suttas, which simply say:
Suttas wrote:And what is becoming?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhavo?

There are these three types of becoming.
Tayome, bhikkhave, bhavā—

Sensual becoming, form becoming and realm becoming.
kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo.

This is called becoming.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhavo.

SN 12.2


Can u explain more that 3:
Sensual becoming, rūpå becoming,
and arūpå becoming?

If u using Abhidhammå u can.



KN is Suttås collection.
Theravādå = original/old buddhisme
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 am Can u explain more that 3:
Sensual becoming, rūpå becoming,
and arūpå becoming?

If u using Abhidhammå u can.
So you admit or confess above Abhidhammå is different to Sutta.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 amKN is Suttås collection.
KN includes books composed hundreds of years after Buddha Gotama.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 amTheravādå = original/old buddhisme
No. There is an impression "Theravada" appears it might be Teachings of Elders and not Buddhavada (Teachings of Buddha). Therefore, Theravada may not old Buddhism but later Buddhism.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Now turning to Anapanasati, the following from the Paṭisambhidāmagga about Step 3 appears correct, however I am not aware of any Buddhists that agree with the below, apart from my good self; although Buddhadasa agrees with me that "sabbe kaya" means "all bodies", which is obviously what the Paṭisambhidāmagga is saying. In short, it seems according to the Paṭisambhidāmagga that step 3 of Anapanasati means "experiencing all bodies", i.e., how the mental body & the breath/physical body affect each other. :mrgreen:

Image
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

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So continuing with Anapanasati, the below from Paṭisambhidāmagga about step 12 appears to be wrong; therefore it seems impossible the Arahant Sariputta spoke this. It appears wrong because steps 10 & 11 of Anapanasati are about the gladdened and concentrated mind therefore obviously steps 10, 11 and 12 are without visible defilement.

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:59 am Now turning to Anapanasati, the following from the Paṭisambhidāmagga about Step 3....
In addition, it appears the above introduces the term "nimitta" into Anapanasati (which appears not found in the Suttas), as follows:
Katamo rūpakāyo? Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ, assāso ca passāso ca, nimittañca upanibandhanā, ye ca vuccanti kāyasaṅkhārā— ayaṁ rūpakāyo.
Therefore, the "rupakaya" ("physical group") includes "nimitta", namely, breathing as the "sign" of meditation.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:41 am
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 am Can u explain more that 3:
Sensual becoming, rūpå becoming,
and arūpå becoming?

If u using Abhidhammå u can.
So you admit or confess above Abhidhammå is different to Sutta.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 amKN is Suttås collection.
KN includes books composed hundreds of years after Buddha Gotama.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:24 amTheravādå = original/old buddhisme
No. There is an impression "Theravada" appears it might be Teachings of Elders and not Buddhavada (Teachings of Buddha). Therefore, Theravada may not old Buddhism but later Buddhism.
How many sankhārå sections are there in the Suttå?
don't quote Abhidhammå.

Abhidhammå is relevant to the Suttå,
the method may look different.
However, when researched is not contradictory.



So, Therāgāthā composed hundreds of years after
Buddhå Gotamå??


How u translate "brahmacariyā"? A Brahmā?
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:26 am How many sankhārå sections are there in the Suttå?
The topic is Dependent Origination. Here, there is only three sankhara in the teaching of the Buddha, namely, kaya, vaci & citta (and not 'mano'). Note: SN 12.51 appears fake sutta for many reasons. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:59 am Now turning to Anapanasati, the following from the Paṭisambhidāmagga about Step 3 appears correct, however I am not aware of any Buddhists that agree with the below, apart from my good self; although Buddhadasa agrees with me that "sabbe kaya" means "all bodies", which is obviously what the Paṭisambhidāmagga is saying. In short, it seems according to the Paṭisambhidāmagga that step 3 of Anapanasati means "experiencing all bodies", i.e., how the mental body & the breath/physical body affect each other. :mrgreen:

Image
I think this is talking bout jhānå.
How to increasing anapanasati.
When u have 1 jhānå from anapanasati.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:12 pm Indonesian
What is the name of the Bahasa translator? :thanks: The English translation is not very good. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:43 am I think this is talking bout jhānå.
How to increasing anapanasati.
When u have 1 jhānå from anapanasati.
No.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

The meaning of dukkha:

Dukkhaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa pīḷanaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa saṅkhataṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa santāpaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā. Dukkhassa vipariṇāmaṭṭhaṁ bujjhantīti—bojjhaṅgā.

Image
santāpa :thumbsup:
masculine
heat; torment; grief
pīḷana :thumbsup:
neuter
oppression; injury; damage
Note: pīḷana appears not found in any suttas. If so, unlikely Sariputta used the word.

Note: vipariṇāma is not the meaning of dukkha. The above sounds wrong. For example, in SN 22.1, the Arahant Sariputta himself said vipariṇāma is only dukkha when there is attachment to vipariṇāma and that non-attachment to vipariṇāma is not dukkha. It seems impossible Sariputta would speak sloppy as quoted above.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

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:thumbsup: :bow:
Virāgo maggo, vimutti phalaṁ. Kathaṁ virāgo maggo? Sotāpattimaggakkhaṇe dassanaṭṭhena sammādiṭṭhi micchādiṭṭhiyā virajjati, tadanuvattakakilesehi ca khandhehi ca virajjati, bahiddhā ca sabbanimittehi virajjati. Virāgo virāgārammaṇo virāgagocaro virāge samudāgato virāge ṭhito virāge patiṭṭhito. Virāgo ti dve virāgā— nibbānañca virāgo, ye ca nibbānārammaṇatājātā dhammā sabbe virāgā hontīti—virāgā.

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

:thumbsup: :bow:

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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:37 am
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:26 am How many sankhārå sections are there in the Suttå?
The topic is Dependent Origination. Here, there is only three sankhara in the teaching of the Buddha, namely, kaya, vaci & citta (and not 'mano'). Note: SN 12.51 appears fake sutta for many reasons. :smile:
All u say fake.
U will say Aṭṭhakathā is fake too.

If 3 sankhārā, can u explain more?
Abhidhammå can.


When someone is away from Theravādå,
For them (think) they are right.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:49 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:12 pm Indonesian
What is the name of the Bahasa translator? :thanks: The English translation is not very good. :|
Ur translation is the best.

If no english translation,
Many people cant read Pāḷi canon.

We using many reference too.
Be, Se, etc. (Pāḷi). But, english is main
Translation for many country.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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