Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

Many people talking about early buddhism,
But they just talking about (personal) speculation.

When a lot of people talking about
Theravādå (orthodox), they talking
about "early buddhism".

Early Buddhist speakers such as praising
Saňjāyå (the former master disciple teacher).

Theravādå speakers like praising the teacher
of the two main disciples, the last one being:
Buddhå Gotamå

U guys just talking bout personal speculation,
Not early buddhism.

If u guys want to talking bout, Early Buddhism,
Just say this Suttå or that Suttå, this Vinayå or
That Vinayå, this Abhidhammå n that Abhidhammå.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Sure, i love it.
What language did you read it in?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:13 am I have read it and could not find anything contrary to Sutta.
Sorry but the above does not appear to be true.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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neander
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by neander »

also until the Gandhāran Buddhist texts, there was no written record that could be used as a base for learning so we are talking about a totally oral tradition of mnemonic repetition that seems quite unlikely to me..

"Let no two of you take the same path..."

I think the first Buddha's disciples had only some personal mantra about what they deemed to be important

like Schopen I think all the monumental written tradition we have today was composed as soon as the community built some monasteries.. and of course, this is my opinion..
Dweller
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Dweller »

Not willing to engage in possibly heated debate, just to say that those books claimed to have been Buddha's words were accepted as such by Theravadins before modern times, and there is no hard evidence about them being less authentic, nor there is any hard evidence that some other books are really words of the Buddha.

It's hypothesis based on theories which can't really be confirmed.

They often go with what is more probable, without saying that there is very high chance that something completely different happened in reality.

I believe than many are not aware of it when reading these claims of authenticity.

It can be trustworthy like having two people describing some event and then taking common part of the story as truth, assuming that the rest is fake.
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherås sermons.
The scholars say Patisambhidamagga was composed at 400 to 700 years after the Buddha.

However, ignoring the above, the Buddha did not teach in the manner below, therefore it is impossible (as I said) for Sariputta to teach in the manner below. Sariputta (example in MN 9; MN 141; etc) did not teach differently to the Buddha.

Image
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:44 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Sure, i love it.
What language did you read it in?
Indonesian
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:17 pm
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherås sermons.
The scholars say Patisambhidamagga was composed at 400 to 700 years after the Buddha.

However, ignoring the above, the Buddha did not teach in the manner below, therefore it is impossible (as I said) for Sariputta to teach in the manner below. Sariputta (example in MN 9; MN 141; etc) did not teach differently to the Buddha.

Image

Just say composed at 400 to 700,
I dunno that is right or not.
If it right, that mean the Therås grouped
Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå's sermons into one group.

Paṭisambhidāmaggå is a collection of great
Sermons from Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå.
Why? Coz, He is Dhammasenāpati.





I don't see any problem in that Suttå,
Thats talking bout short of "Paṭiccasamuppādå"
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Ontheway »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:38 am Many people talking about early buddhism,
But they just talking about (personal) speculation.

When a lot of people talking about
Theravādå (orthodox), they talking
about "early buddhism".

Early Buddhist speakers such as praising
Saňjāyå (the former master disciple teacher).

Theravādå speakers like praising the teacher
of the two main disciples, the last one being:
Buddhå Gotamå

Stop with the bullshit about early buddhism.
U guys just talking bout personal speculation,
Not early buddhism.

If u guys want to talking bout, Early Buddhism,
Just say this Suttå or that Suttå, this Vinayå or
That Vinayå, this Abhidhammå n that Abhidhammå.
I agree with you. :toast:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
SarathW
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:17 pm
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherås sermons.
The scholars say Patisambhidamagga was composed at 400 to 700 years after the Buddha.

However, ignoring the above, the Buddha did not teach in the manner below, therefore it is impossible (as I said) for Sariputta to teach in the manner below. Sariputta (example in MN 9; MN 141; etc) did not teach differently to the Buddha.

Image
Please explain why it is not in line with Sutta.
There are hundreds of Dependent Origination formulas.
Anybody can mix and match it as they like but still it is based on the original. (generic)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:55 pm
Stop with the bullshit about early buddhism.
I agree with you. :toast:
Abhidhamma often contradicts Sutta, including by Abhidhamma's own admission. To keep posting otherwise is obviously false speech from non-readers of Abhidhamma. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:17 pm
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:22 am Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherås sermons.
The scholars say Patisambhidamagga was composed at 400 to 700 years after the Buddha.

However, ignoring the above, the Buddha did not teach in the manner below, therefore it is impossible (as I said) for Sariputta to teach in the manner below. Sariputta (example in MN 9; MN 141; etc) did not teach differently to the Buddha.
Purimakammabhavasmiṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṁ idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. 261.4Ime pañca dhammā idhupapattibhavasmiṁ purekatassa kammassa paccayā.

Idha paripakkattā āyatanānaṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā idha kammabhavasmiṁ āyatiṁ paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Āyatiṁ paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. 261.8Ime pañca dhammā āyatiṁ upapattibhavasmiṁ idha katassa kammassa paccayā. Itime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe tisandhiṁ vīsatiyā ākārehi paṭiccasamuppādaṁ jānāti passati aññāti paṭivijjhati. Taṁ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṁ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati— “paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ”.
Image
Please explain why it is not in line with Sutta.
There are hundreds of Dependent Origination formulas.
Anybody can mix and match it as they like but still it is based on the original. (generic)
There are not hundreds of dependent origination formulas in the suttas. It is impossible Sariputta spoke the Patisambhidamagga because:

* Th suttas never say avijja, sankhara, craving & becoming are exclusively from the past.

* The suttas appear to never use the terminology: "āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo". These words are found, it appears, it later texts and Vinaya.

* The suttas never use the word "paṭisandhi".

* The suttas appear to never refer to "upapattibhavasmiṁ" ("bhava continuing as previously") in respect to consciousness, namarupa, sense bases, contact & feeing.

* The suttas generally refer to birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, grief, which the Patisambhidamagga does not mention above.

* In summary, the terminology above is not the terminology of the suttas. Sariputta obviously did not speak it.

Obviously, the objective Western scholars (unlike Asians who worship Patisambhidamagga & Abhidhamma as "idols") have examined the Patisambhidamagga and found it contains terminology is alien to the Suttas; just as I in 30 minutes examined the Pali of the paragraphs quoted to find they are alien to the suttas. :smile:

I browsed 50% of the Patisambhidamagga yesterday. Unlike the Abhidhamma, the Patisambhidamagga mostly very closely follows the Suttas. But I object to the paragraphs above about Dependent Origination and will post other objects later. :reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:09 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:25 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:17 pm The scholars say Patisambhidamagga was composed at 400 to 700 years after the Buddha.

However, ignoring the above, the Buddha did not teach in the manner below, therefore it is impossible (as I said) for Sariputta to teach in the manner below. Sariputta (example in MN 9; MN 141; etc) did not teach differently to the Buddha.



Image
Please explain why it is not in line with Sutta.
There are hundreds of Dependent Origination formulas.
Anybody can mix and match it as they like but still it is based on the original. (generic)
There are not hundreds of dependent origination formulas in the suttas. It is impossible Sariputta spoke the Patisambhidamagga because:

* Th suttas never say avijja, sankhara, craving & becoming are exclusively from the past.

* The suttas appear to never use the terminology: "āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo". These words are found, it appears, it later texts and Vinaya.

* The suttas never use the word "paṭisandhi".

* The suttas appear to never refer to "upapattibhavasmiṁ" ("bhava continuing as previously") in respect to consciousness, namarupa, sense bases, contact & feeing.

* The suttas generally refer to birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, grief, which the Patisambhidamagga does not mention above.

* In summary, the terminology above is not the terminology of the suttas. Sariputta obviously did not speak it.

Obviously, the objective Western scholars (unlike Asians who worship Patisambhidamagga & Abhidhamma as "idols") have examined the Patisambhidamagga and found it contains terminology is alien to the Suttas; just as I in 30 minutes examined the Pali of the paragraphs quoted to find they are alien to the suttas. :smile:

I browsed 50% of the Patisambhidamagga yesterday. Unlike the Abhidhamma, the Patisambhidamagga mostly very closely follows the Suttas. But I object to the paragraphs above about Dependent Origination and will post other objects later. :reading:



See numbers 271 to 272.
You can see from (1) avijjā and (2) sangkhārå,
there are "9 aspects".
can you find it in other suttås?

No! Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå expands
on the dependence between delusion
and sangkhāra that arises in tandem
with the "9 aspects".

Delusion <---> 9 aspects <---> sangkhārå ...
Last edited by Gwi on Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:33 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:55 pm
Stop with the bullshit about early buddhism.
I agree with you. :toast:
Abhidhamma often contradicts Sutta, including by Abhidhamma's own admission. To keep posting otherwise is obviously false speech from non-readers of Abhidhamma. :|


it is easier to become a sotāpannå using
Abhidhammå than the suttå.
If we (can) make a survey.

Moreover, if only the Suttås were provided,
The bhikkhus would quickly get bored.
With Abhidhammå, the bhikkhus will enjoy
the holy life more, apart from meditation.

Non-theravadas are incapable of
attaining Sotāpannå, that's why they say
"Abhidhammå is wrong". in fact,
They want to throw it away.


If people don't believe in Abhidhammå,
Try to explain the teachings of The Buddhå
Without quoting Abhidhammå.
No one can explain the teachings
of The Buddhå well, without quoting it (Abhidhammå).

for example someone is taught algebra,
and other math subjects, most of them
will be confused. is it right when someone
Cant understand it, then say
"mathematics in college is weird?"
Abhidhammå is like a lesson in college,
not suitable for junior high school students.


Before doubting Abhidhammå, read it first.
Full, 1 volume or more.
Or read Abhidhammatthasanggahå, just volume 1
Or 1 volume or more.



Did u find defenition of "cittå" in Suttå?
U believe cittås defenition from Abhidhammå??

U dont like someone, but u eat they cake.
Last edited by Gwi on Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am
it is easier to become a sotāpannå using
Abhidhammå than the suttå.
Unsubstantiated (false) speech.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am If people don't believe in Abhidhammå,
Try to explain the teachings of The Buddhå
Without quoting Abhidhammå.
No one can explain the teachings
of The Buddhå well, without quoting it (Abhidhammå).
DN 16 says the Buddha explained everything completely. There was no Abhidhammå when the Buddha was alive. The Abhidhammå contradicts Sutta. The Buddha did not teach many things found in Abhidhammå. It is best to study MN 61 before saying false things about the Buddha Teaching. In summary, Dwi, the impression is you have not read the Patisambhidamagga or Abhidhammå. :geek:
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am for example someone is taught algebra,
and other math subjects, most of them
will be confused. is it right when someone
Cant understand it, then say
"mathematics in college is weird?"
Abhidhammå is like a lesson in college,
not suitable for junior high school students.
Abhidhammå is not similar algebra. Abhidhammå is similar to superstition. Regardless, Dwi, the impression is you have not read the Patisambhidamagga or Abhidhammå. :geek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:50 am, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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