Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
SarathW
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by SarathW »

it is easier to become a sotāpannå using
Abhidhammå than the suttå.
If we (can) make a survey.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you.
I do not think Abhidhamma alone will lead you to the Sotapanna state.
My personal opinion is that a person can become a Sotapanna by reading only Sutta.
However, he will fast-track it if he learns Abhidhamma as Well.
The way I see it Abhidhamma is the commentary to Sutta.
I however agree that you can't explain the Dhamma to someone else without the knowledge of Abhidhamma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

SarathW wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:53 am
it is easier to become a sotāpannå using
Abhidhammå than the suttå.
If we (can) make a survey.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you.
I do not think Abhidhamma alone will lead you to the Sotapanna state.
My personal opinion is that a person can become a Sotapanna by reading only Sutta.
However, he will fast-track it if he learns Abhidhamma as Well.
The way I see it Abhidhamma is the commentary to Sutta.
I however agree that you can't explain the Dhamma to someone else without the knowledge of Abhidhamma.

Not reading Abhidhammå, but "taught by someone".
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
thomaslaw
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by thomaslaw »

SarathW wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:53 am I however agree that you can't explain the Dhamma to someone else without the knowledge of Abhidhamma.
I think some concrete and factual details are needed to support this opinion or generalisation.
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Purimakammabhavasmiṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā, upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṁ idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā idhupapattibhavasmiṁ purekatassa kammassa paccayā.

Idha paripakkattā āyatanānaṁ moho avijjā, āyūhanā saṅkhārā, nikanti taṇhā upagamanaṁ upādānaṁ, cetanā bhavo. Ime pañca dhammā idha kammabhavasmiṁ āyatiṁ paṭisandhiyā paccayā.

Āyatiṁ paṭisandhi viññāṇaṁ, okkanti nāmarūpaṁ, pasādo āyatanaṁ, phuṭṭho phasso, vedayitaṁ vedanā. Ime pañca dhammā āyatiṁ upapattibhavasmiṁ idha katassa kammassa paccayā. Itime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe tisandhiṁ vīsatiyā ākārehi paṭiccasamuppādaṁ jānāti passati aññāti paṭivijjhati. Taṁ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṁ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati— “paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṁ”.

Patisambhidamagga
What is interesting about the Patisambhidamagga paragraphs above is:

1. The Patisambhidamagga was placed into the Suttas; into the KN.

2. Then it appears the Patisambhidamagga concepts above (such as kammabhava, upapattibhava and patisandhi) are then found in the Abhidhamma (Vibhanga & Patthana), where the Abhidhamma Vibhanga claims at least two of these concepts are from the Suttas (even though the concepts appear not spoken by the Buddha because they appear to only exist in the Patisambhidamagga).

3. Then these same concepts (such as kammabhava, upapattibhava and patisandhi) appear in the Visuddhimagga.

4. Then you call your doctrinal sect that uses these new concepts: "Theravada: Doctrine of the Elders".

Wow - really neat way of concocting new doctrines; but it appears this is 'Theravada'. The Abhidhamma says about "bhava" in Dependent Origination in the Suttas:
Abidhamma wrote:Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Bhavo duvidhena— atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo.

Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ vuccati “kammabhavo”. Sabbampi bhavagāmikammaṁ kammabhavo.

Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.

Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

Therein what is “because of attachment becoming arises”? Becoming by way of twofold division: Is action-becoming; is resultant-becoming.

Therein what is action-becoming? Activity producing good (resultant), activity producing bad (resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant). This is called action-becoming. Also all action leading to becoming is action-becoming.

Therein what is resultant-becoming? Becoming (in the plane of) desire, becoming (in the plane of) form, becoming (in the) formless (plane), perception-becoming, non-perception-becoming, neither perception nor non-perception-becoming, single aggregate becoming, four aggregate becoming, five aggregate becoming. This is called resultant-becoming.

This is called “because of attachment becoming arises”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/thittila
Compare the above to the real Suttas, which simply say:
Suttas wrote:And what is becoming?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhavo?

There are these three types of becoming.
Tayome, bhikkhave, bhavā—

Sensual becoming, form becoming and realm becoming.
kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo.

This is called becoming.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhavo.

SN 12.2
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:10 am Not reading Abhidhammå, but "taught by someone".
Please provide evidence you have read the Abhidhammå. Continuing to post unsubstantiated (false) speech is disgusting. Thank you
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:29 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:53 am I however agree that you can't explain the Dhamma to someone else without the knowledge of Abhidhamma.
I think some concrete and factual details are needed to support this opinion or generalisation.
He means to explain Dhammå well
without quoting Abhidhammå.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:57 am He means to explain Dhammå well
without quoting Abhidhammå.
It appears the students of the literature here, regardless of their general views, do not believe what you post and expect improvement from you. :ugeek:
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thomaslaw
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by thomaslaw »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:09 pm
* In summary, the terminology above is not the terminology of the suttas. Sariputta obviously did not speak it.

... examined the Pali of the paragraphs quoted to find they are alien to the suttas. :smile:
Even the principal four Nikayas/Agamas themselves are not entirely the same in style and content. E.g. the teachings of Satipatthana sutta in MN 10/MA 26, DN 22, and EA 12.1 are not entirely the same in SN/SA (e.g. SN 47.2 = SA 622).
Last edited by thomaslaw on Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:04 am Even the principal four Nikayas/Agamas themselves are not entirely the same in style and content. E.g. the teachings of Satipatthana suttas in MN/MA and DN/DA are not entirely the same in SN/SA.
Thanks. Previously Buddhadasa and more recently Sujato ('Piltdown Sutta') strongly questioned the authenticity of the Satipatthana Suttas.
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:42 am
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am
it is easier to become a sotāpannå using
Abhidhammå than the suttå.
Unsubstantiated (false) speech.
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am If people don't believe in Abhidhammå,
Try to explain the teachings of The Buddhå
Without quoting Abhidhammå.
No one can explain the teachings
of The Buddhå well, without quoting it (Abhidhammå).
DN 16 says the Buddha explained everything completely. There was no Abhidhammå when the Buddha was alive. The Abhidhammå contradicts Sutta. The Buddha did not teach many things found in Abhidhammå. It is best to study MN 61 before saying false things about the Buddha Teaching. In summary, Dwi, the impression is you have not read the Patisambhidamagga or Abhidhammå. :geek:
Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:36 am for example someone is taught algebra,
and other math subjects, most of them
will be confused. is it right when someone
Cant understand it, then say
"mathematics in college is weird?"
Abhidhammå is like a lesson in college,
not suitable for junior high school students.
Abhidhammå is not similar algebra. Abhidhammå is similar to superstition. Regardless, Dwi, the impression is you have not read the Patisambhidamagga or Abhidhammå. :geek:
Have you heard of "Dhammavinayå"?
Which word is closer to the word "Dhammå"?

U guys want to say "Suttavinayå"??


I read Paṭisambhidāmaggå in 2015/2016.
Dhammasaṅgaṇī, Vibhaṅgå, Puggala Paňňatti,
And Kathāvatthu in 2020.
All is full version.

How bout u? Just quoting??
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:26 am

Have you heard of "Dhammavinayå"?
Which word is closer to the word "Dhammå"?

U guys want to say "Suttavinayå"??


I read Paṭisambhidāmaggå in 2015/2016.
Dhammasaṅgaṇī, Vibhaṅgå, Puggala Paňňatti,
And Kathāvatthu in 2020.
All is full version.

How bout u? Just quoting??
Wow. Amazing. How about the suttas? You read them all? Super cool. Inspiring! Thanks for sharing.

Here's some tips and introduction to Early Buddhism, since I think you're new to this concept. We are now in the part of the Dhammawheel forum called Early Buddhism.

The Early Buddhism movement is more typically found in Theravada, it mirrors one of the early 18 schools of Buddhism for wanting to go back to the suttas or earliest sources and discard Abhidhamma, as a lot of the 18 schools have their own versions of Abhidhamma and they differ in details. One example is that Mindfulness is classified as neutral instead of always wholesome in another Abhidhamma. There's also found the idea of the path person only exist for a mind moment in Abhidhamma, but then in the suttas, they are people whom we can give gifts towards, so it doesn't make sense for them to exist for so short a time. And various other minor stuffs, like the sutta suggests there can be in between states after death, before rebirth, Abhidhamma model is immediate rebirth.

The early Buddhism movement can also be seen as a reaction towards the critique from Mahayana that the Theravada critiqued Mahayana for accepting later sutras, but the Theravadas themselves accepted the Abhidhamma which is composed only in the 3rd council. As well as the later commentaries.

Early Buddhism studies like in suttacentral website offers comparative studies to the Agamas of other early schools which are preserved in Mahayana and Tibetan traditions. The texts which has parallels are likely to be the earliest, hence most authentic sayings we can attribute to the Buddha.

The question in the OP on asking which books are from the Buddha is also an attempt via literature analysis to distinguish which suttas in the KN are written/ produced first which ones later, and early Buddhism places more authority and trust for the earlier ones.

This is the context to try to discover what the Buddha said by hearing him directly rather than via the lens of later commentaries, Abdhidhamma (which is about 200+ years late), etc. It leads to less internal contradiction.

By common understanding of the forum, I think it's cool to insist that Abhidhamma is authentic words of the Buddha in the Abhidhamma section of the forum, whereas in this Early Buddhism part, it's ok to doubt it, and discard it. So don't take things personally. This is just what's happening in the Buddhist world.

Also, if you visit https://discourse.suttacentral.net/ You'll find that the dhamma discussed there is done well without needing to mention Abhidhamma.

Also to address your question, see AN 4.180: https://suttacentral.net/an4.180/en/sujato The Buddha asked us to check the Dhamma learned by someone against the Sutta and Vinaya, not Abhidhamma and Vinaya.
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

Owh, im in EB spot

Suttavinayå??

U mean Kathāvatthu? If we dunt have
Kathāvatthu from 3rd council (version), we cant
Find OLD BUDDHISME word (Theravādå).


R Kathāvatthu have 2 versions?
Yup, same as Sutta Nipātå 2.2, we have
Story of Buddhå Kassapå. That story same
With Buddhå Gotamå's story. But, the therås
Using Buddhå Kassapå's story.

But, it is same.


Theravādå = orthodox (original/old buddhisme)
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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robertk
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by robertk »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:12 am

The Early Buddhism movement is more typically found in Theravada, it mirrors one of the early 18 schools of Buddhism for wanting to go back to the suttas or earliest sources and discard Abhidhamma, as a lot of the 18 schools have their own versions of Abhidhamma and they differ in details. One example is that Mindfulness is classified as neutral instead of always wholesome in another Abhidhamma. There's also found the idea of the path person only exist for a mind moment in Abhidhamma, but then in the suttas, they are people whom we can give gifts towards, so it doesn't make sense for them to exist for so short a time. And various other minor stuffs, like the sutta suggests there can be in between states after death, before rebirth, Abhidhamma model is immediate rebirth.

The early Buddhism movement can also be seen as a reaction towards the critique from Mahayana that the Theravada critiqued Mahayana for accepting later sutras, but the Theravadas themselves accepted the Abhidhamma which is composed only in the 3rd council. As well as the later commentaries.

Early Buddhism studies like in suttacentral website offers comparative studies to the Agamas of other early schools which are preserved in Mahayana and Tibetan traditions. The texts which has parallels are likely to be the earliest, hence most authentic sayings we can attribute to the Buddha.

The question in the OP on asking which books are from the Buddha is also an attempt via literature analysis to distinguish which suttas in the KN are written/ produced first which ones later, and early Buddhism places more authority and trust for the earlier ones.

This is the context to try to discover what the Buddha said by hearing him directly rather than via the lens of later commentaries, Abdhidhamma (which is about 200+ years late), etc. It leads to less internal contradiction.

By common understanding of the forum, I think it's cool to insist that Abhidhamma is authentic words of the Buddha in the Abhidhamma section of the forum, whereas in this Early Buddhism part, it's ok to doubt it, and discard it. So don't take things personally. This is just what's happening in the Buddhist world.

Also, if you visit https://discourse.suttacentral.net/ You'll find that the dhamma discussed there is done well without needing to mention Abhidhamma.

Also to address your question, see AN 4.180: https://suttacentral.net/an4.180/en/sujato The Buddha asked us to check the Dhamma learned by someone against the Sutta and Vinaya, not Abhidhamma and Vinaya.
To give proper context the owner( or one of main contributors) of suttacentral is Sujato I think.
His considered opinion of Abhidhamma is below.
[note: I disagree with his estimation. I also believe that Abhidhamma was recited at the first council.]
http://kusala.online-dhamma.net/%E6%96% ... dhamma.pdf

But the Dhammasangini asks ‘What is the aggregate of cognition on that occasion?’ This is as
nonsensical as asking ‘Which dog is the canine species?’ The Dhammasangini is so crude
a semantic steamroller that it is unable to distinguish between a class and a member of
the class. A class is too obviously a concept, and it just wouldn’t do to soil the
abhidhamma with mere concepts.
In the later abhidhamma, the treatment of time is dominated by a radical new theory,
totally unlike anything in the suttas or even the canonical abhidhamma, the theory of
moments (khanavada). [..]
Now it is quite possible to take this theory, compare it with the suttas, and refute it
point by point. But here I would simply like to point out what an implausible and useless
idea it is.
[..]
So too
the self (atta) is just a big pile of ‘self-existents’ (sabhava).
This kind of analysis is reminiscent of Jain animism, which sees all existence as
composed of atoms (paramanu), which they call ‘persons’ (pudgala). These are elemental
souls (jiva, lives), possessed of color, odor, and taste. The souls of earth, etc., are tiny,
undeveloped, and can only be perceived when vast amounts of them accumulate in one
place. The souls of humans are merely an advanced version. The simple animistic
theories of the early Jaina Sutras, whose concepts probably pre-date the Buddha, became
developed by their commentaries in abstruse and baffling detail.

The reifying tendency takes full flight in later abhidhamma literature.

This task is the burden of the Patthana, a book
whose labyrinthine mazes are ideally suited to masking the fact that it is a spurious
solution to a pseudo-problem. The Patthana, the most revered – and therefore least read
– of all abhidhamma books, is said to present 24 modes of conditional relationships. It
does nothing of the sort. Most of the much-vaunted ‘modes of conditional relations’ are
merely lists of dhammas that act as condition for other dhammas. The text says little
about causality as such; in fact this work excels all other products of the human mind in
its combination of verbosity of form with vacuity of content. Remarkably, it is less
intellectually stimulating and less readable than a telephone book. The Patthana attempts
to glue the mind and the body back together again with its ‘dissociation condition’, a
term which perfectly encapsulates the strange world of mind-body dualism: things are
connected by being disconnected. I can certainly confirm that if I think about this stuff
too much, I end up in a very dissociated condition!
....
I suggest that the abhidhamma is most profitably considered, not as a psychology or
as a philosophy, but as a mystical cult.
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robertk
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by robertk »

Also to address your question, see AN 4.180: https://suttacentral.net/an4.180/en/sujato The Buddha asked us to check the Dhamma learned by someone against the Sutta and Vinaya, not Abhidhamma and Vinaya.
At times Abhidhamma is classified as part of the Nikayas:
The Expositor (Atthasalini). Buddhaghosa's Commentary On The Dhammasangani The First Book Of The Abhidhamma Pitaka. Translated by Pe Maung Tin. pp. 35-38,
Thus as rehearsed at the[first] Council, the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka-classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya-classification, [28] Veyyakarana by Part-classification and constitutes two or three thousand units of text by the classification of textual units
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:24 am
See numbers 271 to 272.
You can see from (1) avijjā and (2) sangkhārå,
there are "9 aspects".
can you find it in other suttås?

No! Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå expands
on the dependence between delusion
and sangkhāra that arises in tandem
with the "9 aspects".

Delusion <---> 9 aspects <---> sangkhārå ...
The "9 aspects" are not related to my objections & are irrelevant to what I posted. Also, there is no evidence Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå says anything because the basic concepts are non-existent in the suttas. You appear not engaged in any type of scholarly or academic discussion but appear engaged in some type of Identitarian Sectarian Generalisations.

:focus:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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