Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
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Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear forum,

The Khuddaka Nikāya is comprised of:
  • Khuddakapatha
    Dhammapada
    Udana
    Itivuttaka
    Suttanipata
    Vimanavatthu
    Petavatthu
    Theragatha
    Therigatha
    Jataka
    Niddesa
    Patisambhidamagga
    Apadana
    Buddhavamsa
    Cariyapitaka
    Nettipakarana or Netti
    Petakopadesa
    Milinda Panha
Which of the above are supposed to be spoken during the Buddha's lifetime?

Thank you :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DNS
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DNS »

Dhammapada
Udana
Itivuttaka
Suttanipata
Theragatha
Therigatha

According to the analysis of T W Rhys Davids and the scholar monks Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Brahmali.
santimuni
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by santimuni »

DNS wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:39 am Dhammapada
Udana
Itivuttaka
Suttanipata
Theragatha
Therigatha

According to the analysis of T W Rhys Davids and the scholar monks Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Brahmali.
Really? I only thought the Suttanipata and Thera/Therigathas were, and part of the Dhammapada. Could you post a link where the Ajahns say this? I hold them in high regard when it comes to early Buddhism.
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DNS »

santimuni wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:12 am
DNS wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:39 am Dhammapada
Udana
Itivuttaka
Suttanipata
Theragatha
Therigatha

According to the analysis of T W Rhys Davids and the scholar monks Ajahn Sujato and Ajahn Brahmali.
Really? I only thought the Suttanipata and Thera/Therigathas were, and part of the Dhammapada. Could you post a link where the Ajahns say this? I hold them in high regard when it comes to early Buddhism.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/so ... texts/5795

see also: https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/1-10_e ... Pali_Canon
and: http://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015 ... ticity.pdf
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:33 am Dear forum,

The Khuddaka Nikāya is comprised of:
  • Khuddakapatha
    Dhammapada
    Udana
    Itivuttaka
    Suttanipata
    Vimanavatthu
    Petavatthu
    Theragatha
    Therigatha
    Jataka
    Niddesa
    Patisambhidamagga
    Apadana
    Buddhavamsa
    Cariyapitaka
    Nettipakarana or Netti
    Petakopadesa
    Milinda Panha
Which of the above are supposed to be spoken during the Buddha's lifetime?

Thank you :smile:

Paṭisambhidāmaggå and Niddeså from
Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå.
But, that is Buddhavacanā.
(Theragāthā n Therīgāthā dont ask).


Others from Buddhå Gotamå.

Nettippakaraṇå, Peṭakopadeså, dan Milinda Paňhå
Part of Cariyāpiṭakå. Thats why Cariyāpiṭakå just
Talking bout 7 pāramī.


Milinda Paňhå ---> Paňňā

Maybe same with Jotipālå's story. He is
Bodhisattå Gotamå. Milinda Paňhå (story)
After the 4th Council.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:28 pm Paṭisambhidāmaggå and Niddeså from
Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherå.
The above sounds impossible. Kind regards :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

You doubt Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:58 am You doubt Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Have you read it? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:46 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:58 am You doubt Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Have you read it? :shrug:
I have read it and could not find anything contrary to Sutta.
Can you find anything not tally with Sutta?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:46 am
Gwi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:58 am You doubt Paṭisambhidāmaggå?
Have you read it? :shrug:
Sure, i love it.
I always focus on reading
Āyasmā Sāriputtå Mahātherås sermons.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
neander
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by neander »

probably none are the words of the Buddha maybe some quotes here and there.

As Bronkhorst said Buddha's disciples must have remembered only the very last speech, you can test it by yourself and without writings, your memory is quite limited seen your CNS has to do many other things to keep you alive and this was especially true in a premodern era without any kind of writing

Also in " Buddhism in the shadow of Brahmins" Bronkhorst agrees with Schopen that Buddhism was not meant to be a cenobitical community seen that even Ashoka knew nothing about buddhis monasteries "We know that Buddhism started off
as a group of mendicants, and Aśoka’s inscription counts as evidence that this group was still not in a position to receive collective gifts at his time" .... Ray(1994: 399 ff.) suggests that Buddhist monasticism arose in emulation of the rival
Brahmanical tradition

So the monastic tradition (with huge communities of monks reciting Suttas all day long ) appears a later development, totally alien to Buddha's way of life, a reaction to growing Brahminic growing political power and influence.

So early Buddhism was made of individual Buddhists who lived and empowered Buddha's transmission (man to man without too many words they could not have remembered much individually), the huge monasteries with hundreds of monks reciting suttas was quite a modern thing ( 1 century CE)
SarathW
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by SarathW »

they could not have remembered much individually
Memorising is the tool of Buddha's time.
It was not limited to Buddha's teaching.
Relying on Google is a modern thing.
Even nowadays there are many monks remember the whole Tipitaka.

http://www.myanmarnet.net/nibbana/tipitaka/tpdkdhra.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Gwi
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Gwi »

neander wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:42 am probably ... a modern thing ( 1 century CE)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingun_Sayadaw
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
neander
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by neander »

monks today live in a cenobitical system in monasteries, Schopen go to great length in explaining why we do not have evidence of any settlement during Ashoka (Ashoka did not grant any tax reduction to any monasteries but only to the village of Lumbini (Buddhist Nuns, Monks, and Other Worldly Matters: Recent Papers on Monastic Buddhism in India) it seems certain monastic residential quarters appeared well after Ashoka and probably near the beginning of the common era, and I doubt a wandering Buddhist can memorize much
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Re: Khuddaka Nikāya: which books are words the Buddha ???

Post by Mr. Seek »

neander wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:28 am I doubt a wandering Buddhist can memorize much
It's incredibly easy if you have some 30 minutes of time per day and motivation. Im a lazy ass layman and i've memorized +20 suttas, and they're chock full of complicated stuff. If i put actual, serious effort into it, i could probably double or triple that number in a couple of months. if you're organized, free, motivated, i.e. like a wandering monk, im sure you can memorize an entire nikaya in one lifetime. The suttas to them are what a computer is to a person working in an IT dept, or what a truck is to some1 working as a truck driver.
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