if you witness a crime

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:25 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:51 pm ...
So there’s four embodied states of samadhi in the Visuddhimagga with full bodily pervasion labelled as the access to each jhana. Is that a correct way in your view to practice samadhi or not?

Regardless of whether you and I disagree with labelling these states as “access samadhi” when we compare the actual experience being described it sounds very similar to “embodied jhana”.
There is no access concentration in the suttas.
Yes, what vism. calls access concentration is quite similar to genuine sutta jhana.
But vism. redefines what jhana is, and one can not read suttas and understand what's going on if they go in with preconceived ideas according to Vism.
That depends upon if stream-enterers have Jhana or not. If they don’t, then access concentration must be what they have.
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Re: if you witness a crime

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waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:48 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:25 pm There is no access concentration in the suttas.
Agreed.
Yes, what vism. calls access concentration is quite similar to genuine sutta jhana.
Excellent! So someone practicing according to the Visuddhimagga does develop bojjhanga and jhana correctly? They may call it something different ,“access samadhi”, but they are still developing samma samadhi right? Can you directly agree that Visuddhimagga teaches samma samadhi even if mislabeled?
No, because Vism. doesn't acknowledge that upacara and bojjhanga is developed as samma samadhi. That's one of the big problems, and this is why it's criminal. People are progressing along just fine (according to genuine EBT samadhi gradual training), and then they think, "I don't have real jhana, I don't have bojjhanga becuase I still have perception of the body, and I can't think the thought, "is this jhana"' ".
That in turn, causes tension, and it blocks their progress. Tension blocks passadhi sambojjhanga.

Similarly, you can get 4 jhanas from non buddhist traditions, and it's not samma samadhi.

If LBT people were honest with integrity, and they upfront said, we're redefining jhana like this, body like this, in order to make our non-buddhist abhidhamma coherent, but in the suttas 'jhana', 'body', 'rupa', mean something different. Then that would fine, it wouldn't be criminal.
It's criminal because they make a new dictionary, claim the EBT is using their same corrupt dictionary as LBT, and that the BUddha is describing the exact same thing as in LBT, that's what makes it criminal.

So to answer your implied question, it would be possible for people like Brahm and Vism. to present their samadhi training system in an honest way that isn't criminal.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:30 pm
For all the attainments you have claimed they don’t seem to have done you much good.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:30 pm No, because Vism. doesn't acknowledge that upacara and bojjhanga is developed as samma samadhi. That's one of the big problems, and this is why it's criminal. People are progressing along just fine (according to genuine EBT samadhi gradual training), and then they think, "I don't have real jhana, I don't have bojjhanga becuase I still have perception of the body, and I can't think the thought, "is this jhana"' ".
That in turn, causes tension, and it blocks their progress. Tension blocks passadhi sambojjhanga.
Let’s explore this idea. Why does thinking “this isn’t real jhana” cause bodily tension? Doesn’t that require clinging to the idea “I have to get real jhana”. Without clinging to the idea “I have to get real jhana” I think someone could be completely and totally relaxed while developing samadhi regardless of whether or not they believe the Visuddhimagga, and whether or not they think they have “100% correct bojjhanga development”. When you know for yourself that what you’re doing is wholesome then getting the labels of the states you experience exactly correct cannot cause you tension. It just become less relevant.

And to be clear the Visuddhimagga has the developmental process correct prior to “absorption” including bodily tranquility-so in the lead up to what they label “access” the progression of the bojjhanga is correctly understood and explained. Someone practicing according to Visuddhimagga will see clear signs of progress as validated by that text (at least before “absorption”) and will know they are making progress. So unless they become fixated on “getting full absorption”, they have no need to be tense about it! Moreover, the access samadhi that they will likely be able to develop is essentially “embodied jhana”! They just have to be content with calling it “access samadhi”—-which is described as sufficient for full awakening as well in the Visuddhimagga , so they also shouldn’t have any worries about not being able to attain liberation if they truly believe the text.
If LBT people were honest with integrity, and they upfront said, we're redefining jhana like this, body like this, in order to make our non-buddhist abhidhamma coherent, but in the suttas 'jhana', 'body', 'rupa', mean something different. Then that would fine, it wouldn't be criminal.
It's criminal because they make a new dictionary, claim the EBT is using their same corrupt dictionary as LBT, and that the BUddha is describing the exact same thing as in LBT, that's what makes it criminal.
Frank, sometimes people follow tradition out of deep respect and faith in admirable teachers, friends, and even “ancient theras”. We don’t have to assume their motivations are “criminal”. We could have some sympathy instead for the difficult situation of trying reconcile one’s faith with one’s intellect. The types of rationalizations we might see by Ven Buddhagosa at some points in his Visuddhimagga may not even be conscious and intentional-lots of our biases affect our behavior without conscious and intentional knowledge!
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Re: if you witness a crime

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waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:40 pm Let’s explore this idea. Why does thinking “this isn’t real jhana” cause bodily tension? ...
Thanks for that. It's pretty much my attitude. I really don't see the downside with simply developing my samadhi as best I can. As far as I can tell, I have plenty of greed, hatred, and delusion to let go of...

However, I would also add that Frank's disagreement is with several teachers who don't actually use the Visuddhimagga to justify their interpretation. They just happen to come to similar concussions.

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Re: if you witness a crime

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mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:12 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:40 pm Let’s explore this idea. Why does thinking “this isn’t real jhana” cause bodily tension? ...
Thanks for that. It's pretty much my attitude. I really don't see the downside with simply developing my samadhi as best I can. As far as I can tell, I have plenty of greed, hatred, and delusion to let go of...

However, I would also add that Frank's disagreement is with several teachers who don't actually use the Visuddhimagga to justify their interpretation. They just happen to come to similar concussions.

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Mike
You probably meant 'conclusion' instead of concussion, but your unintentional error actually would explain the situation far better and make the criminals more sympathetic.

I know that Sujato and Brahm don't publicly claim Vism. as a basis for their wrong views on jhana.
But in reality that's what gives their wrong view legitimacy and popularity, because they're riding the coat tails of a bigger criminal that's already established VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) as the incumbent, popular 'correct' view of what 'jhana' is. VRJ being the beneficiary of survivorship bias over the past 1500 years or so. The winners rewrite the history books and redefine 'jhana', 'body', 'rupa', etc.

Have you actually studied what Ajahn Brahm and how Sujato defines and supports their wrong view of jhana? I've audited that in detail but I don't think most people have paid attention.
Brahm talks about how even though the term 'access concentration' is not in the suttas, but (I paraphrase, not exact quote) "access concentration accurately describes how real jhana is in the suttas, and is a useful term and concept." Brahm's jhana is just Vism. jhana without underlying abhidhamma theory. It's VRJ in function and appearance.
Sujato follows U. Thitthila's corrupt translation of vitakka and vicara in from Abhidhamma Vibhanga. "Placing the mind and keeping it connected" is just a more fluent version of "initial application and sustained application".
Vism. murders the body in third jhana by redefining 'body' as 'mind'.
Sujato murders the body in third jhana by ambiguating the kaya 'body' into 'he personally experiences', perhaps justifying it in his mind that a physical body is also contained with 'personality', so it doesn't look as obviously guilty of murder as Vism.
Sujato redefines vaci-sankhara as vitakka and vicara's "placing the mind...".
Basically, he's replacing the Buddha's dictionary with his own corrupted dictionary.

You all who are blinded by cognitive dissonance, who can't fathom the possibility someone who's overall a great human being is capable of also having flaws where they fatally distort their religion by rewriting the dictionary, don't have the samadhi and self awareness to understand when cognitive dissonance is at work, and/or haven't studied the crime carefully enough to understand it.

Granted, there is some complexity to the problem, but the simplest way I can explain it is this.

If I were to rewrite the Bible's dictionary the same way Sujato rewrites the Buddha's EBT, I could also get the Bible and the supreme God and Jesus to teach about arahants, nirvana, and a jhana that behaves exactly like Vism.

And wouldn't that be a grand coincidence, that God, Jesus, Buddhghosa, Sujato, all studied the Buddha's EBT scripture on jhana and independently came to the same conclusion that the jhana described matches VRJ exactly?
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Re: if you witness a crime

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waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:40 pm ...
Frank, sometimes people follow tradition out of deep respect and faith in admirable teachers, friends, and even “ancient theras”. We don’t have to assume their motivations are “criminal”. We could have some sympathy instead for the difficult situation of trying reconcile one’s faith with one’s intellect. The types of rationalizations we might see by Ven Buddhagosa at some points in his Visuddhimagga may not even be conscious and intentional-lots of our biases affect our behavior without conscious and intentional knowledge!

I don't doubt that they had great intentions, but their behavior and the means by which they achieve their non-criminal motivations is criminal.

As for your theory of Vism. including real jhana and bojjhanga as part of the preliminary path, you're living in an ivory tower and entertaining theories in your head where every sincere religion is a good guy and they can all get along. You haven't seen how Vism. jhana is taught in the modern world.

I've lived and practiced that system for over 10 years, so I know the problems with it are not just my own personal experience. I've seen hundreds of the thousands of people who practice VRJ that have the same problems with tension as I've described.
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Re: if you witness a crime

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waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:40 pm ...
Frank, sometimes people follow tradition out of deep respect and faith in admirable teachers, friends, and even “ancient theras”. ...
In case some of you don't know what cognitive dissonance is, that's the heart of the issue there.
It's where one can not reconcile that a respected and beloved teacher, friend, relative, Thera, etc., are capable of being wrong and doing harmful things, and they let that bias drive their behavior.

For example, that teacher is great, they can't possibly be wrong, so let's shoot the messengers and whistle blowers who accuse them of wrong doing.

That's how the world works. Popularity is the ultimate arbiter of truth, and that's why influencers are paid big bucks and accrue great power and fortune. It's been that way forever.
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:36 am I know that Sujato and Brahm don't publicly claim Vism. as a basis for their wrong views on jhana.
But in reality that's what gives their wrong view legitimacy and popularity, because they're riding the coat tails of a bigger criminal that's already established VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) as the incumbent, popular 'correct' view of what 'jhana' is. VRJ being the beneficiary of survivorship bias over the past 1500 years or so. The winners rewrite the history books and redefine 'jhana', 'body', 'rupa', etc.
It’s as if Mahayana never existed. This is just ahistorical nonsense.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:47 am I don't doubt that they had great intentions, but their behavior and the means by which they achieve their non-criminal motivations is criminal.
So like manslaughter instead of murder? I still don’t see how accusing people of being “criminal” is helpful regardless. Who are you writing articles to on your blog? People who already agree with you, or people who’s minds you hope to change?
I've lived and practiced that system for over 10 years, so I know the problems with it are not just my own personal experience. I've seen hundreds of the thousands of people who practice VRJ that have the same problems with tension as I've described.
I think tension is a common problem when developing samadhi for many people. I could see how feeling like one must achieve an extremely difficult state like an absorbed jhana could be stressful, but it would be better for everyone to emphasize the process of developing samadhi than to stress out about the outcome. Outcomes take care of themselves when the correct causes are in place. In either system if people don’t fixate on “I need to get xyz state” then why would they get tense? Isn’t that a possible alternative explanation-that instead of the people you saw getting tense because of the VM method being inherently wrong, they got tense because of a common pitfall when developing samadhi? (being too results oriented instead of process oriented)

(Regardless, overall, I do think jhana as I understand them in the suttas is far more efficient.)
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:36 am You probably meant 'conclusion' instead of concussion, but your unintentional error actually would explain the situation far better and make the criminals more sympathetic. ...
:jumping:

Frankly, your dismissive tone makes it difficult for me to take you opinions seriously. Furthermore, you didn't actually address my question about downsides. As various people have pointed out, what you consider jhana seems similar to the commentarial "access concentration" or Mahasi/U Pandita "vipassana jhana", and appears to involve development of the same factors.

Therefore, I think it would be most useful for me to continue developing my samadhi, and reducing my greed, hatred, and delusion...

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Re: if you witness a crime

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mikenz66 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:05 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:36 am You probably meant 'conclusion' instead of concussion, but your unintentional error actually would explain the situation far better and make the criminals more sympathetic. ...
:jumping:

Frankly, your dismissive tone makes it difficult for me to take you opinions seriously. Furthermore, you didn't actually address my question about downsides. As various people have pointed out, what you consider jhana seems similar to the commentarial "access concentration" or Mahasi/U Pandita "vipassana jhana", and appears to involve development of the same factors.

Therefore, I think it would be most useful for me to continue developing my samadhi, and reducing my greed, hatred, and delusion...

:heart:
Mike
I did address the issue. The suttas make it clear, about 50 out of 152 MN suttas for example, make it exceedingly clear that 4 jhanas is necessary for liberation. It doesn't say access concentration is sufficient for liberation, and there is no access concentration in the EBT. That the access concentration of Vism. is roughly equivalent to EBT sutta jhana, doesn't help matters. People are going to remember that the suttas make it crystal clear that JHANA is necessary, so if they're under the wrong view that VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) is the same as sutta JHANA, then that's what they're going to shoot for.

And not to mention that if they think VRJ is real jhana, then the suttas have been destroyed for them (on the jhana instructions), because now they can't read sutta passages on jhana and make any sense out of them, since their using a corrupted dictionary and have some wrong understandings that they're trying to read into the suttas. That's a horrendous crime, done intentionally.

If I sound dismissive, it's only because I assume you and others understand things when it turns out you didn't understand, not because I'm unwilling to clarify any issues. For example, after I pointed out in detail Analayo's erroneous interpretations of vitakka and vicara, fallacious logic and circular reasoning for ekaggata, you continue to promote his EBMS book as if it's still an equally legitimate view of jhana. Which tells me you don't understand the issues of the jhana controversy. You're stuck in cognitive dissonance, and you want to believe every one is good, and everyone has a legitimate and valid understanding of jhana. Sorry to say you don't understand the issues, and and/or you didn't do your due diligence an examining the charges against them. If you did, either you would be able to show how my thesis or wrong and how theirs isn't.

There are plenty of things where I don't agree with other monks on their translation and interpretation, but I don't criticize or say they're wrong, because many of those things do deal with some legitimate ambiguity and is open to interpretation. Another example, I believe I'm right on my interpretation of the 4 satipatthana formula, but I don't think there's a way to prove it convincingly with pali sutta passages. It's just difficult to prove I'm right or others are right on some issues. I can only detail my reasoning on why. But with the jhana issues, it's not even debatable that Sujato is criminally wrong in his interpretation, and Analayo is criminally wrong in how he tries to justify his interpretation of vitakka and vicara from the pali suttas. Very straightforward, objective evidence there (or lack thereof in how they support their position). I suspect Analayo is wrong for his Chinese Agama interpretations on vitakka and vicara, but since I lack expertise in Chinese, then I refrain from judgement on that. I disagree with B. Bodhi on his interpretation of "I only teach dukkha and its cessation", and actually I agree with the commentaries on this one. But that is another example of something that's hard to prove either way objectively. So one has to have a personal sense honor and integrity in assessing wrongness and crime, and what is open to other legitimate views.
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k »

What you're saying isn't wrong in many ways, but
Again, you're just living in your ivory tower and haven't been on the battlefields to see how people actually train.

Put it to you this way. Taiji quan for example, teaches deep physical relaxation explicitly, hands on corrections. They actually teach kaya passaddhi better than the suttas. Yet, even with a live master every day telling the students that, 'no, you're not relaxed enough, relaxation can still go way deeper', it's still hard for people to understand. Cheng Man Ching for example, a taiji legend, said his teacher told him to relax every day and it took him about 50 years to really understand relaxation (kaya passaddhi).

So that's with correct teaching every day for years, it's hard to get people to really relax.

In Pa Auk system (he's the most famous modern teacher of Vism. system), I've seen firsthand how Pa Auk himself, when correcting student's problems in meditation, where it's really obvious the problem is the student needs to relax more both physically and mentally, Pa auk gives the correction, "you need ekaggata, you need to be more one pointed and focused."

I could write long articles about the problems in the system, just don't feel motivated, but reactions such as yours shows that someday I'll need to go into detail on this.
waryoffolly wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:46 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:47 am I don't doubt that they had great intentions, but their behavior and the means by which they achieve their non-criminal motivations is criminal.
So like manslaughter instead of murder? I still don’t see how accusing people of being “criminal” is helpful regardless. Who are you writing articles to on your blog? People who already agree with you, or people who’s minds you hope to change?
I've lived and practiced that system for over 10 years, so I know the problems with it are not just my own personal experience. I've seen hundreds of the thousands of people who practice VRJ that have the same problems with tension as I've described.
I think tension is a common problem when developing samadhi for many people. I could see how feeling like one must achieve an extremely difficult state like an absorbed jhana could be stressful, but it would be better for everyone to emphasize the process of developing samadhi than to stress out about the outcome. Outcomes take care of themselves when the correct causes are in place. In either system if people don’t fixate on “I need to get xyz state” then why would they get tense? Isn’t that a possible alternative explanation-that instead of the people you saw getting tense because of the VM method being inherently wrong, they got tense because of a common pitfall when developing samadhi? (being too results oriented instead of process oriented)

(Regardless, overall, I do think jhana as I understand them in the suttas is far more efficient.)
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Re: if you witness a crime

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Maybe one thing you guys aren't understanding is that many people practicing (what they believe is) jhana, whether ordained or yogi, are hard core practitioners who have a strong conviction in karma and rebirth, and they aren't casual meditators looking to improve their mental focus so they can be more productive at work or in school. They're practicing to attain a strong enough samadhi to make an end of rebirth and suffering.

Many westerners don't believe in rebirth, so then of course the stakes for everything is much lower, and important things like preservation of genuine Dhamma for the world don't seem like a crime or a big deal.

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:12 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:40 pm Let’s explore this idea. Why does thinking “this isn’t real jhana” cause bodily tension? ...
Thanks for that. It's pretty much my attitude. I really don't see the downside with simply developing my samadhi as best I can. As far as I can tell, I have plenty of greed, hatred, and delusion to let go of...

However, I would also add that Frank's disagreement is with several teachers who don't actually use the Visuddhimagga to justify their interpretation. They just happen to come to similar concussions.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: if you witness a crime

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frank k wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:30 am
You don’t preserve the Dhamma by acting the way you do, and quite frankly if attaining the Jhanas and the formless means I end up being like you then, quite frankly, I don’t want them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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