MA 143 || AN 3.60, mind reading a meditator in second jhana, B. Analayo and B. Sujato sustains deathblow to their v&v

[frank k]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... r-in.html

MA 143 傷歌邏經 || AN 3.60, mind reading a meditator in second jhana, B. Analayo and B. Sujato sustains deathblow to their vitakka interpretation


excerpt:
Just as an alert reader should be asking, why is noble silence second jhana, and not first jhana, if all four jhanas one is supposedly [according to VRJ (V)isuddhi-magga (Re)-definition of (J)hana and Jabrama-jhana] having already cut off thinking, and mind is in a frozen state divorced from the body?

You should be asking the same thing again here, why is it that one exercising the psychic power of mind reading, is it talking about reading a mind of a meditator in second jhana, not first first jhana?

[cappuccino]

too complex, you need to simplify……

[DooDoot]

You should be asking the same thing again here, why is it that one exercising the psychic power of mind reading, is it talking about reading a mind of a meditator in second jhana, not first first jhana?

with his own mind he encompasses the mind of one who has attained concentration without thought and examination and he understands: ‘This person’s mental activities are so disposed that immediately afterward he will think this thought.’

Bodhi

In another case, someone comprehends the mind of a person who has attained the immersion that’s free of placing the mind and keeping it connected. They understand:

Idha pana, brāhmaṇa, ekacco na heva kho nimittena ādisati, napi manussānaṃ vā amanussānaṃ vā devatānaṃ vā saddaṃ sutvā ādisati, napi vitakkayato vicārayato vitakkavipphārasaddaṃ sutvā ādisati, api ca kho avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhiṃ
samāpannassa cetasā ceto paricca pajānāti:

‘Judging by the way this person’s intentions are directed, immediately after this mind state, they’ll think this thought.’
‘yathā imassa bhoto manosaṅkhārā paṇihitā imassa cittassa anantarā amuṃ nāma vitakkaṃ vitakkessatī’ti.

And even if they reveal this many times, it turns out exactly so, not otherwise.

Sujato

"Then there is the case where a certain person reads [another person's thoughts], not by means of a sign or vision; not by hearing the voice of human beings, non-human beings, or devas; but by hearing the sound of the directed thought & evaluation of a person thinking directed thoughts and evaluating, [saying,] 'Such is your thinking, here is where your thinking is, thus is your mind.' And however much he may read, that's exactly how it is, and not otherwise.

"Then there is the case where a certain person reads [another person's thoughts], not by means of a sign or vision; not by hearing the voice of human beings, non-human beings, or devas; not by hearing the sound of the directed thought & evaluation of a person thinking directed thoughts and evaluating; but by having attained a concentration devoid of directed thought & evaluation, and encompassing the awareness [of the other] with his own awareness, he discerns, 'Given the way the mental fabrications of this venerable person are inclined, the directed thoughts of his mind will immediately think about this.' And however much he may read, that's exactly how it is, and not otherwise.

Thanissaro

[frank k]

too complex, you need to simplify……

it's as simple as I can make it. If you explain what part you don't understand, I'll try to to revise it.

[DooDoot]

it's as simple as I can make it. If you explain what part you don't understand, I'll try to to revise it.

I doubt anyone is interested.

[auto]

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... r-in.html

MA 143 傷歌邏經 || AN 3.60, mind reading a meditator in second jhana, B. Analayo and B. Sujato sustains deathblow to their vitakka interpretation


excerpt:
Just as an alert reader should be asking, why is noble silence second jhana, and not first jhana, if all four jhanas one is supposedly [according to VRJ (V)isuddhi-magga (Re)-definition of (J)hana and Jabrama-jhana] having already cut off thinking, and mind is in a frozen state divorced from the body?

You should be asking the same thing again here, why is it that one exercising the psychic power of mind reading, is it talking about reading a mind of a meditator in second jhana, not first first jhana?

Thinking/vitakka are thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. Vitakka/thinking is dhamma, dhamma is rooted in desire.

‘It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
‘idha bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.This is called the first absorption.’Idaṃ vuccati paṭhamaṃ jhānan’ti.

sensual pleasures are accompanied with sannamanasikara what are besetting when in 1st jhana.

While I was in that meditation, perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset me.Tassa mayhaṃ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti.

vitakkavicara is regards to pitisukha which arises from seclusion and citta needs take interest in that(instead of thoughts connected with sensual pleasures).

Then the Buddha came up to me with his psychic power and said,Atha kho maṃ, āvuso, bhagavā iddhiyā upasaṅkamitvā etadavoca:‘Moggallāna, Moggallāna!‘moggallāna, moggallāna.
Don’t neglect the first absorption, brahmin! Settle your mind in the first absorption; unify your mind and immerse it in the first absorption.’Mā, brāhmaṇa, paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ pamādo, paṭhame jhāne cittaṃ saṇṭhapehi, paṭhame jhāne cittaṃ ekodiṃ karohi, paṭhame jhāne cittaṃ samādahā’ti.

citta needs become interested in vitakkavicara connected with pitisukha what arises from seclusion in order for to remain in the jhana.

And so, after some time … I entered and remained in the first absorption.So khvāhaṃ, āvuso, aparena samayena vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihāsiṃ.

the thoughts/vitakka are connected with sensual pleasures and when staying(living) in 1st jhana thoughts are connected with pitisukha.

in that sense i agree that the vitakkavicara translation into 'placing the mind and keeping it connected' is out of place(or i just don't understand what is meant with that translation). One needs tame the mind into thinking about things what are based on seclusion and arouse pitisukha. But one needs realize that even this is fabrication if want enter 2nd jhana. Both 1st and 2nd jhana have pitisukha, 1st is arousing it with thoughts and 2nd is without(if want live/remain in 2nd jhana)
--
it is possible that the 'placing the mind and keeping it connected' is translated this way because of the 'remaining in jhana' part(after besetting of sannamanasikara is dealt with)

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

here the vitakkavicara sounds like it is accompanied with pitisukha? hmm aren't thoughts suppose to be the variable here and pitisukha what stays? i mean there is decision points which way to go with the translation and many ways to go wrong.