MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Post Reply
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Majjhima Nikāya 8 wrote:It's possible that some mendicant, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, might enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space. They might think they’re practicing self-effacement. But in the training of the noble one these are not called ‘self-effacement’; they’re called ‘peaceful meditations’.
Bhikkhu Bodhi
Dīgha Nikāya 15 wrote:“There are beings who, with the complete transcending of perceptions of (physical) form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of multiplicity, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite space,’ arrive at the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is the fifth station of consciousness.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

In the context of the arupa jhanas, what is exactly the disappearance of perceptions of resistance? What does it mean? How does it feel like? I thought it was stopping perceiving the body, as if it was not present anymore while in one of the arupas, but rereading those suttas I wonder if it means anything else.
Thanks.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
santa100
Posts: 4449
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by santa100 »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: I thought it was stopping perceiving the body, as if it was not present anymore while in one of the arupas, but rereading those suttas I wonder if it means anything else.
That's pretty much it. Ven. Bodhi's note from "Connected Discourses" citing Comy's explanation of "impingement"/"resistance"
Spk says this verse is stated to show the opportunity (or region) for the disentangling of the tangle (jataya vijatanokasa ). Here "name" (nama) represents the four mental aggregates. Spk treats "impingement" (patigha) as metrical shorthand for perception of impingement (patighasañña). According to Spk-pt, in pada c("And also impingement and perception of form") we should read a compressed dvanda compound, patigharupasañña ('perceptions of impingement and of form'), the first part of which has been truncated, split off, and nasalized to fit the metre. Impingement being the impact of the five sense objects on the five sense bases, 'perception of impingement' (patighasañña) is defined as the fivefold sense perception
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

santa100 wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: I thought it was stopping perceiving the body, as if it was not present anymore while in one of the arupas, but rereading those suttas I wonder if it means anything else.
That's pretty much it. Ven. Bodhi's note from "Connected Discourses" citing Comy's explanation of "impingement"/"resistance"
Spk says this verse is stated to show the opportunity (or region) for the disentangling of the tangle (jataya vijatanokasa ). Here "name" (nama) represents the four mental aggregates. Spk treats "impingement" (patigha) as metrical shorthand for perception of impingement (patighasañña). According to Spk-pt, in pada c("And also impingement and perception of form") we should read a compressed dvanda compound, patigharupasañña ('perceptions of impingement and of form'), the first part of which has been truncated, split off, and nasalized to fit the metre. Impingement being the impact of the five sense objects on the five sense bases, 'perception of impingement' (patighasañña) is defined as the fivefold sense perception
Hello santa100. I posted on this forum (Early Buddhism) for only one reason: not to read commentaries from Buddhaghosa or Classical Theravāda.
And I also asked about personal experience (what it feels like). Not everything in the Canon is so literal. There is a sutta which says your breath ceases (completely) in the fourth jhana, for example.
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I found out.
Recommended reading for who is interested in this:

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/s ... l#flink-43

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... a.html?m=1

Thanks Frank. Much merit for being a bastion of the EBT. 😬
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
santa100
Posts: 4449
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by santa100 »

rhinoceroshorn wrote:Hello santa100. I posted on this forum (Early Buddhism) for only one reason: not to read commentaries from Buddhaghosa or Classical Theravāda.
And I also asked about personal experience (what it feels like). Not everything in the Canon is so literal. There is a sutta which says your breath ceases (completely) in the fourth jhana, for example.
The problem with not going with Comys in this particular case is that you're gonna have to need someone who's already achieved the Dimension of Infinitude of Space attainment in order to get more details from his/her personal experience. This is something way beyond my paygrade and I'll yield it to the Infinite Space attainer to speak up.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9013
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:43 pm i thought it was stopping perceiving the body
perceiving the physical body (rupa) appears to stop with the consummation of the 1st jhana
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:43 pmIn the context of the arupa jhanas, what is exactly the disappearance of perceptions of resistance?
resistance to Bhikkhu Bodhi's logical translation and being impinged upon by Thanissaro's questionable translation of paṭigha.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9013
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:43 pmWhat does it mean?
Generally, the declarers of fake jhana search for pleasant feelings and even volitionally manifest them (similar to Hindu laughing yoga). However, in real jhana, pleasant feelings are the totality of conscious experience because they are so entirely pervasive the mind is completely unable to choose another object of experience. For example, the suttas says:
There is nothing of his entire [mental] body [nama-kaya] unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal.

MN 119
Therefore, it appears in the sphere of boundless space, there are no more feelings (vedana) completely dominating the entire experience of consciousness. Thus, it appears there are no more feelings impinging on consciousness.
paṭigha

(psychologically) sensory reaction
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
ToVincent
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by ToVincent »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:43 pm In the context of the arupa jhanas, what is exactly the disappearance of perceptions of resistance? What does it mean? How does it feel like? I thought it was stopping perceiving the body, as if it was not present anymore while in one of the arupas, but rereading those suttas I wonder if it means anything else.
Thanks.
Proposed translation (with proper lexicography) :

1. sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā,
2. paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā,
3. nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā
4. ‘ananto ākāso’ti
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.


1. with the complete overstepping of perceptions of form (matter),
2. with the vanishing of perceptions (based) upon the organs of senses (viz. ajjhattikāni āyatanāni [including mano]),
3. not turning the mind (manasa/mano) towards perceptions of manifoldness (lit. (what is) differently than one),
4. aware of the non-internal space.
he attains and seizes distinctively, the field of the non-deflected space (viz. that does not turn back at nāmarūpa (in the internal)) .

*Here, "internal" means anything that is within, and below the saḷāyatana nidana (the field of sensory experience).
The "internal space" is what reveals the nāmarūpa of the saḷāyatana nidāna (see ChUp. below) .


.

.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

1. sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā,
1. with the complete overstepping of perceptions of form (matter),

Samatikkamā [saṁ+atikamma] [Sk.atikrama]
अतिक्रम atikrama [act. atikram]
अतिक्रम् atikram [ati-kram]
- to overstep , to be passed RV.
अति ati
- beyond , over.
√ क्रम् kram
- to cause to step ŚBr.
- to step , walk , go , go towards RV. AV. TS.
- to go across , go over MBh. (late?)


¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

2. paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā,
2. with the vanishing of perceptions upon the organs of senses (ajjhattikāni āyatanāni & mano),

Paṭigha [paṭi+gha - adj.suffix of ghan=han] [Sk.प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah ]
प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah
प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah [prati- √ grah]
- to take hold of , grasp , seize AV.
- to take , appropriate RV.
प्रति prati
- upon
√ ग्रह् grah var. grabh
- to perceive (with the organs of sense, or with mánas/mano) RV. VS. ŚBr. [MuṇḍUp. ŚvetUp. - post-contemporary]

...........

Atthaṅgamā [attha+gamu+a]
- setting down (of the sun), disappearance,perishing,destruction,annihilation.
From Sk. [astaṃ-√ gam]
- cease , vanish , perish , die ŚBr. MBh.
अस्त asta
to go down , set RV. AV.


¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

3. nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā
3. not turning the mind (manasa/mano) to perceptions of manifoldness (lit. differently than one),


Manasikaroti:
Sk. Karoti { pr. ac. sg. 3 } √ कृ kṛ
कृ kṛ
- to direct the thoughts , mind (mánas) RV. Mn. MBh. (towards any object , turn the attention to).

Nānatta [Sk.नानात्व nānātva - [nānā-tva]
- variety , manifoldness Br. MBh.
नाना nānā
- differently
त्व tva
- one RV.

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

4. ‘ananto ākāso’ti
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

4. aware of the non-internal space.
he attains and seizes distinctively, the field of the non-deflected space - (viz. that does not turn back at nāmarūpa (in the internal) — namely the space that is not the internal space of the world of senses (saḷāyatana nidāna;) but that still reveals the nāmarūpa nidāna (see below ChUp.))

Viharati usually means "dwells in" or "meditates on".

But it might better be translated as "fetches with distinction".



||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

NOTE:

A person doing jhāna, is one that transcends (samatikkamma,) each āyatana.
In the 5th higher āyatana, one starts to experience without the organs of senses - that is to say with a free unpolluted citta.
Then transcends towards the āyatana of non-internal (an/anto = antaḥ = antar) space - that is to say, a space that doesn't deflect/bend (añc,) towards the internal.
Both space and viññāṇa have both the qualifying terms of ananto (non-internal) and anañca (not bending/not deflecting/not turning away).

What does that mean?

In the Chandogya Upanishad, it is said: "Verily, what is called space, is the revealer of nāmarūpa".
Therefore, in the 6th ayatana, one "sees" with a liberated citta, from the nāmarūpa nidana point of view. The nāmarūpa that has descended in saḷāyatana nidāna, is not there any longer. The nāmarūpa that dealt with the field of experience of the senses, is no longer operative.

Same thing for ayatana #7th. One transcends towards the viññāṇa nidāna, that is the external (non-internal - ananto) viññāṇa. That is to say, towards an aniddassana (non manifested), non-bending (anañca) towards the nāmarūpa nidāna any longer. That is to say again, that viññāṇa does not turn back at nāmarūpa any longer (as in SN 12.65) — and shoots back towards the end of the remaining sankharas, and the end of ignorance.
https://justpaste.it/img/51a3a38fb4d299 ... 9fb84b.png
So on and so forth until the cessation of experiences (vedanā), and cessation of acquiescences (sañña) towards those experiences - and this leads to the break on through to the other shore (nibbāna).
https://cruciality.files.wordpress.com/ ... /loser.jpg


||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Oh, and the breath does not stop completely in the 4th jhana. Nirodha (nirudh) means "to cease" - but it also mean "to restrain" — which is the case in the fourth jhana - (namely that one prevents the action and expression of the breath).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 887
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by frank k »

Here I explore in detail the the infinite space dimension formula:

http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/smd5/index.html

The solution to the OP's question comes from studying how the words patigha and nanatta are used in the suttas.
And also what rupa is referring to.
Rupa from the four jhanas, is referring to perceptions of the anatomical body.
As DN 2 makes clear, (study carefully how kaya and rupa are used right before and right after the four jhana formula), both kaya and rupa are referring to the anatomical body of the meditator in that context.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
ToVincent
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by ToVincent »

frank k wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:44 pm Here I explore in detail the the infinite space dimension formula:
......
The solution to the OP's question comes from studying how the words patigha and nanatta are used in the suttas.
PTS says:
paṭi+gha = adj.suffix of ghan=han

I'll challenge you to find here:
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/paṭigha/
an entry for gha or ghan or han.


Which seems to prove that the translations - (and subsequent plagiarizing) - that you are refering to, were based on a mere interpretation of the text. gave later on those ludicous translations
of MN 59, like "perceptions of resistance", or "sensory impact".

On the other hand, if you use the meaning in the Indian literature of the time of Buddha, you will have this:

Paṭigha [paṭi+gha - adj.suffix of ghan=han] [Sk.प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah ]
प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah
प्रतिग्रह् pratigrah [prati- √ grah]
- to take hold of , grasp , seize AV.
- to take , appropriate RV.
प्रति prati
- upon
√ ग्रह् grah var. grabh
- to perceive (with the organs of sense, or with mánas/mano) RV. VS. ŚBr. [MuṇḍUp. ŚvetUp. - post-contemporary]

The you come up with a more proper translation like:
"He grabs a robe for the heat (uṇhassa = dative (indirect object, beneficiary of the action). Etc.

___________

Also my dear Judeo-Christian friend(s), "ananto akasa is not "infinite space".
There ain't no "Ein sof" shebang in all this. That's later Vedanta acculturation.

To make it simple, It's all about the space, outside our world of sense.
It's all about the space that we don't perceive with our organs of sense any longer.
See here (again?) :
viewtopic.php?p=585254#p585254

I know, I know. The little Mara in some of us, doesn't want to believe, let alone to hear about something outside the "ALL".
Yet!
http://www.leunig.com.au/images/galleri ... Leunig.jpg
(As you can see, I'm on the right).
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
User avatar
rhinoceroshorn
Posts: 856
Joined: Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ven. Ajahn Thanissaro explores this theme in this essay "Silence isn't Mandatory". Worth reading!

{Download link}


This concept of purity of jhana should have been more explored in the Canon. It seems it is mentioned once in Vinaya.
Thanks ven. Mahāmoggallana for being so humble. :lol:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
ToVincent
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by ToVincent »

You mean "The" Ṭhānissaro bhikkhu, who once and still speaks of "perceptions of resistance", (and "infinity of space") ?

Unlimited gratitude to Ajahn Geoff, for having given us free access to the Sutta Piṭaka - so we can have now, the time to delve more deeply into the Pali grammar and historical lexicography.
Forever thankful and reverent.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9013
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: MN8/DN15: ending of perceptions of impingement/resistance

Post by DooDoot »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:53 pm Ven. Ajahn Thanissaro explores this theme in this essay "Silence isn't Mandatory". Worth reading!
You mean the same Ven. Ajahn Thanissaro that causes confusion by referring to perceptions of resistance? No thanks

We posted here to teach rather than to be taught; to help the lost rather than to become lost. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Post Reply