DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.

How do you explain this blatant error?

The Buddha was not omniscient and only had the three knowledges. He could have been wrong about other things.
7
30%
The Buddha was omniscient but spoke what was understood at his time, like the explanation about Nibbāna and a🕯️.
3
13%
Geologists are wrong. The Buddha is right.
4
17%
Scribal error.
0
No votes
Later edition of the sutta (since it's not found in the equivalent Agama).
3
13%
Other.
6
26%
 
Total votes: 23

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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:50 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:48 pm

In other words, it's not possible to know everything.
The Buddha knows everything about and within the All. That is the limit of what can be known. If there is anything outside of the All, we cannot know. In other words, the Buddha can know anything about what is possible to know. The interesting thing is that if he said he did know the beginning of samsara someone else could say he wasn't all knowing, since his knowledge would have a limit ;)
If all that there is is samsara and nibbana, there is nothing else to look for. :shrug:
Well indeed:
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kosambi in a siṃsapa grove. Then the Blessed One took up a few siṃsapa leaves in his hand and addressed the bhikkhus thus: “What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more numerous: these few siṃsapa leaves that I have taken up in my hand or those in the siṃsapa grove overhead?”

“Venerable sir, the siṃsapa leaves that the Blessed One has taken up in his hand are few, but those in the siṃsapa grove overhead are numerous.”

“So too, bhikkhus, the things I have directly known but have not taught you are numerous, while the things I have taught you are few. And why, bhikkhus, have I not taught those many things? Because they are unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and do not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. Therefore I have not taught them.

“And what, bhikkhus, have I taught? I have taught: ‘This is suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ And why, bhikkhus, have I taught this? Because this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. Therefore I have taught this.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.31/en/bodhi
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by cappuccino »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:57 pm Faith by itself doesn't do anything to the practice. Faith is just a prerequisite to practice the path.
actually, it helps you accept the truth


even strange truth
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:57 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:50 pm

The Buddha knows everything about and within the All. That is the limit of what can be known. If there is anything outside of the All, we cannot know. In other words, the Buddha can know anything about what is possible to know. The interesting thing is that if he said he did know the beginning of samsara someone else could say he wasn't all knowing, since his knowledge would have a limit ;)
If all that there is is samsara and nibbana, there is nothing else to look for. :shrug:
Well indeed:
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kosambi in a siṃsapa grove. Then the Blessed One took up a few siṃsapa leaves in his hand and addressed the bhikkhus thus: “What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more numerous: these few siṃsapa leaves that I have taken up in my hand or those in the siṃsapa grove overhead?”

“Venerable sir, the siṃsapa leaves that the Blessed One has taken up in his hand are few, but those in the siṃsapa grove overhead are numerous.”

“So too, bhikkhus, the things I have directly known but have not taught you are numerous, while the things I have taught you are few. And why, bhikkhus, have I not taught those many things? Because they are unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and do not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. Therefore I have not taught them.

“And what, bhikkhus, have I taught? I have taught: ‘This is suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I have taught: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ And why, bhikkhus, have I taught this? Because this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna. Therefore I have taught this.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn56.31/en/bodhi
I don't know what are the implications of existing anything beyond samsara and nibbana TBH. It probably opens spurious interpretations about God or the like. Who knows? DO begins in ignorance... What possibly originated it?
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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confusedlayman
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by confusedlayman »

it should be later addition because buddha don't give wrong examples even for convincing others or buddha is right but scientist are wrong. im not sure
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:57 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:57 pm Faith by itself doesn't do anything to the practice. Faith is just a prerequisite to practice the path.
actually, it helps you accept the truth


even strange truth
Faith doesn't mean you know the truth, it means you believe it may be the truth.
Nobody here knows if kamma or rebirth are real, we believe in the Buddha. But a mere belief isn't a proof.

Curiously and funnily enough, the same sutta talks about it.
This faith, Lord, I have in the Blessed One, that there has not been, there will not be, nor is there now, another recluse or brahman more exalted in Enlightenment than the Blessed One."

"Lofty indeed is this speech of yours, Sariputta, and lordly! A bold utterance, a veritable sounding of the lion's roar! But how is this, Sariputta? Those Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the past — do you have direct personal knowledge of all those Blessed Ones, as to their virtue, their meditation, [12] their wisdom, their abiding, and their emancipation?" [13]

"Not so, Lord."

"Then how is this, Sariputta? Those Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the future — do you have direct personal knowledge of all those Blessed Ones, as to their virtue, their meditation, their wisdom, their abiding, and their emancipation?"

"Not so, Lord."

"Then how is this, Sariputta? Of me, who am at present the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, do you have direct personal knowledge as to my virtue, my meditation, my wisdom, my abiding, and my emancipation?"

"Not so, Lord."

"Then it is clear, Sariputta, that you have no such direct personal knowledge of the Arahats, the Fully Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present. How then dare you set forth a speech so lofty and lordly, :goodpost: an utterance so bold, a veritable sounding of the lion's roar, saying: 'This faith, Lord, I have in the Blessed One, that there has not been, there will not be, nor is there now another recluse or brahman more exalted in Enlightenment than the Blessed One'?"
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:04 pm

I don't know what are the implications of existing anything beyond samsara and nibbana TBH. It probably opens spurious interpretations about God or the like. Who knows? DO begins in ignorance... What possibly originated it?
Well in the Dhamma the Sabbaṃ is the epistemological limit. The vision and forms etc are the Totality which encompasses everything. To talk of anything outside of the All is then meaningless babble.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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confusedlayman
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by confusedlayman »

Dalai Lama says if science proves buddhism is wrong then we need to adopt to science. but geologist itself not always sure why tectonic plates move?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:16 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:04 pm

I don't know what are the implications of existing anything beyond samsara and nibbana TBH. It probably opens spurious interpretations about God or the like. Who knows? DO begins in ignorance... What possibly originated it?
Well in the Dhamma the Sabbaṃ is the epistemological limit. The vision and forms etc are the Totality which encompasses everything. To talk of anything outside of the All is then meaningless babble.
Those days I have been thinking about other unconscious beings like bacteria, fungi, plants, algae. They all live without being conscious of what they do, like literal machines.
I wonder if they are not a separate samsara. :tongue:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:23 pm Dalai Lama says if science proves buddhism is wrong then we need to adopt to science. but geologist itself not always sure why tectonic plates move?
I kinda agree with His Holiness.
We must use the suttas to help with our suffering. This is where they are effective. :anjali:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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cappuccino
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:23 pm but geologist itself not always sure why tectonic plates move?
basically
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Buddha wasn't alone in this type of thinking. If we look at the poetry of those who have awakened in the Theragāthā & Therīgāthā we can see that despite being awakening they still took for granted some explanations of the world that today we would consider to be unscientific. For example:
My little hut is ro­ofed and pleasant, sheltered from the wind:
so rain, sky god, as you please!
My mind is serene and freed,
I practice wholeheartedly: so rain, sky god!
https://suttacentral.net/thag1.1/en/sujato

Sujato left out the translation of "deva". As we know, rain isn't caused by gods but in the thought world of iron age India this would seem like a plausible explanation. This suggests that awakening has nothing to do with gaining knowledge about the "world out there". So, if I were to awaken I would still go on explaining everyday things based on current scientific knowledge, which in a 100 years might be falsified.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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confusedlayman
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:04 pm The Buddha wasn't alone in this type of thinking. If we look at the poetry of those who have awakened in the Theragāthā & Therīgāthā we can see that despite being awakening they still took for granted some explanations of the world that today we would consider to be unscientific. For example:
My little hut is ro­ofed and pleasant, sheltered from the wind:
so rain, sky god, as you please!
My mind is serene and freed,
I practice wholeheartedly: so rain, sky god!
https://suttacentral.net/thag1.1/en/sujato

Sujato left out the translation of "deva". As we know, rain isn't caused by gods but in the thought world of iron age India this would seem like a plausible explanation. This suggests that awakening has nothing to do with gaining knowledge about the "world out there". So, if I were to awaken I would still go on explaining everyday things based on current scientific knowledge, which in a 100 years might be falsified.
maybe its a metaphor not literal meaning. I am sure awakening will lead to knowing external things also as long as knowledge is directed towards it.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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cappuccino
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:04 pm As we know, rain isn't caused by gods but
speak for yourself
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN16: How to explain this WRONG explanation about earthquakes?

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:04 pm The Buddha wasn't alone in this type of thinking. If we look at the poetry of those who have awakened in the Theragāthā & Therīgāthā we can see that despite being awakening they still took for granted some explanations of the world that today we would consider to be unscientific. For example:
My little hut is ro­ofed and pleasant, sheltered from the wind:
so rain, sky god, as you please!
My mind is serene and freed,
I practice wholeheartedly: so rain, sky god!
https://suttacentral.net/thag1.1/en/sujato

Sujato left out the translation of "deva". As we know, rain isn't caused by gods but in the thought world of iron age India this would seem like a plausible explanation. This suggests that awakening has nothing to do with gaining knowledge about the "world out there". So, if I were to awaken I would still go on explaining everyday things based on current scientific knowledge, which in a 100 years might be falsified.
maybe its a metaphor not literal meaning. I am sure awakening will lead to knowing external things also as long as knowledge is directed towards it.
Awakening is concerned with certain knowledge, not the probabilistic knowledge of science.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: DN16: How to explain this explanation about earthquakes?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

If you take the stance that the explanation is wrong, then your mind is closed. That is not the right approach to improve one's understanding of the texts.
Mahāparinibbāna Sutta wrote:171. “There are eight root causes, eight conditions, Ānanda, for the appearance of a mighty earthquake. What eight? This great earth, Ānanda, is established on water, the water on wind, and the wind rests upon space. At such a time, Ānanda, as the mighty winds blow, the waters are shaken by the mighty winds as they blow, and by the moving water the earth is shaken. These are the first causes, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake.
The four elements of earth, water, fire, and air should not be regarded literally. Here, water means fluidity, and even molten rock has the element of fluidity. The element of wind means pressure or motion, and earth refers to solidity. When the pressure of gases increases inside the earth’s mantle, the magma flows being pushed by the high pressures. Wherever there are faults in the solid rock, the pressure forces the rock surfaces apart and earthquakes can occur. The increase of water pressure in saturated ground can also cause liquefaction, and previously solid earth becomes like quicksand. This regular type of earthquake is due to the law of climate (utu niyāma).

An Exposition of the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta
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