AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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rhinoceroshorn
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AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.

I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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DooDoot
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by DooDoot »

'antara' appears to mean 'in-between', such as:
‘Mister, this is a bowl full to the brim with oil. You must carry it in between this large crowd and the finest lady in the land.

‘ayaṃ te, ambho purisa, samatittiko telapatto antarena ca mahāsamajjaṃ antarena ca janapadakalyāṇiyā pariharitabbo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/sujato
to regard 'anatara' to mean 'bardo' appears very imaginary (mannati/papanca)
bardo
/ˈbɑːdəʊ/
Learn to pronounce
noun
(in Tibetan Buddhism) a state of existence between death and rebirth, varying in length according to a person's conduct in life and manner of, or age at, death.
while i personally doubt the Buddha ever spoke this genre of sutta, my speculation is AN 4.131 refers to:

1. uddhaṃsotassa akaniṭṭhagāmino = non-returner with mind still stuck in the rupa & arupa jhana fetters thus akaniṭṭha upapatti (continuing to delight in the Peerless/Akaniṭṭha brahma realm)

2. antarāparinibbāyissa = non-returner with mind not stuck in the rupa & arupa fetters but still with conceit & last two fetters thus bhava

keep in mind there is a sutta that says a stream-enterer cannot have an 8th bhava therefore the last 3 fetters naturally appear to be the types of bhavapaṭilābhiyāni AN 4.131 is referring to

:smile:
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confusedlayman
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm
What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.

I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
I think it has to do with sotapanna 6th life and 7th life or once returner 1st deva life and second human life.

in between the two they get extinguished it maybe anytime before death but it doesn't mean bardo.

for example someone once returner do practice in deva world so he can extinguish there or he comes one more to human world and extinguish here. one life is deva, another life is human and nibbana happens in between which means before death of final human life. I may be wrong
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:45 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm
What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.

I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
I think it has to do with sotapanna 6th life and 7th life or once returner 1st deva life and second human life.

in between the two they get extinguished it maybe anytime before death but it doesn't mean bardo.

for example someone once returner do practice in deva world so he can extinguish there or he comes one more to human world and extinguish here. one life is deva, another life is human and nibbana happens in between which means before death of final human life. I may be wrong
Hello friend.
I believe this is similar to the Theravadin interpretation.
However, the literal meaning of antaraparinibbayissa is another.

Image
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
santa100
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by santa100 »

rhinoceroshorn wrote:I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.
Ven. Bodhi's note from "Numerical Discourses" discussed about this issue:
This statement creates a predicament for the traditional Theravadin interpretation of the five types of non-returners, which is based on Pp 16-17 and its commentary at Pp-a 198-201. The core of this interpretation is the rejection of an intermediate state (antarabhava) between two lives. Such rejection thus entails the need to interpret the antaraparinibbayi as a non-returner who attains arahantship during the first half of the life span in the next existence. However, the word antaraparinibbayi literally means 'one who attains final nibbana in between', and there seems no legitimate reason, based on a sutta, to deny the possibility that certain non-returners, following their death in human form, enter an intermediate state and attain final nibbana in that state itself, thereby circumventing the need to take another rebirth. This seems to be the purport of the present text, according to which the antaraparinibbayi has abandoned the fetters of rebirth but not the fetters of existence. Upon attaining arahantship, the antaraparinibbayi will also abandon the fetters of existence. I have discussed the five types of non-returners in detail in CDB 1902-3, note 65. For further discussion, see p. 1782, notes 1535-38; for additional textual analysis, see Harvey 1995: 98-108.
Guess there's only one surefire way to find out: becoming a non-returner oneself. Needless to say, let's focus on stream-entry first!
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Crosspost¡¡!¡!!!!!!¡!!!!!! :twisted:
I was more concerned about the existence of antarabhava/bardo, not attainments and their interactions in it.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
santa100
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by santa100 »

But then again, how exactly are you gonna know for sure about the existence/non-existence of antarabhava/bardo without direct attainments and their interactions??
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confusedlayman
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by confusedlayman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:33 pm Crosspost¡¡!¡!!!!!!¡!!!!!! :twisted:
I was more concerned about the existence of antarabhava/bardo, not attainments and their interactions in it.
no bardo..

existence of bardo state ruled out in 3rd council by arhant Tissa.

holding to bardo view is outsiders view acc to 3rd council

when there is grasping, there is rebirth... its instant next moment.. I can't see there is intermediate stage between grasping and becoming
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:45 am I think it has to do with sotapanna 6th life and 7th life or once returner 1st deva life and second human life.,,, I may be wrong
yes, u are wrong. the teaching is about non-returners
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:45 amfor example someone once returner do practice in deva world so he can extinguish there or he comes one more to human world and extinguish here. one life is deva, another life is human and nibbana happens in between which means before death of final human life.
i recall Venerable Dhammanando post many times there are no suttas about returning to the human life for nibbana.
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:33 pmI was more concerned about the existence of antarabhava/bardo, not attainments and their interactions in it.
It seems the term "time of death" does not explicitly refer to the moment of death because there is one sutta (i cannot recall its title) that says: "at the time of death the monk visits the Buddha and receives a teaching". Therefore, possibly the term "antarā" ("in-between") refers to the time between when the monk learns of their imminent demise and when their body actually drops dead or "lands/upahacca" (hits the earth).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by Aloka »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm
I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
Hi, are you're refering to the Tibetan Buddhist Bardo teachings?. I'm asking this because a number of years ago I received all the Bardo teachings and practices during a special Vajrayana retreat.

Sadly, when people start throwing "Bardo" terminology around on the internet, they usually have no idea what they're talking about.

Good luck with your study & practice.

Kind regards,

Aloka

PS Is that you in the avatar ?
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by Mr. Seek »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm
What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.

I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
This seems like a late sutta, no?
  • kind of numerical, like a matika
  • no reference to where the discourse took place
  • no reference to who gave the discourse, to whom
  • reference to the 4 stages of enlightenment
  • reference to the 10 fetters
  • has little practical use
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:55 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm
What person has given up the lower fetters and the fetters for getting reborn, but not the fetters for getting a continued existence? One extinguished between one life and the next.

I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
This seems like a late sutta, no?
  • kind of numerical, like a matika
  • no reference to where the discourse took place
  • no reference to who gave the discourse and in front of whom
  • reference to the 4 stages of enlightenment
  • reference to the 10 fetters
  • has absolutely zero practical use
Are all suttas referring to attainments and fetters later addition? :reading:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
Mr. Seek
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by Mr. Seek »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:01 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:55 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:53 pm


I always heard Theravada denies antarabhava like the plague, but this sutta seems to support its existence.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.131/en/sujato
This seems like a late sutta, no?
  • kind of numerical, like a matika
  • no reference to where the discourse took place
  • no reference to who gave the discourse and in front of whom
  • reference to the 4 stages of enlightenment
  • reference to the 10 fetters
  • has absolutely zero practical use
Do all suttas referring to attainments and fetters are later addition? :reading:
Some scholars have suggested that. To me at least it makes sense.

I wouldn't trust the sutta, although I wouldn't discard it either.

Compare what is universally accepted as an EBT sutta, e.g. something from Snp, with this. The difference is obvious.
Snp 5.11—"Having nothing, free of clinging: That is the island, there is no other."
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Aloka wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:25 pmquote]

Hi, are you're refering to the Tibetan Buddhist Bardo teachings?. I'm asking this because a number of years ago I received all the Bardo teachings and practices during a special Vajrayana retreat.
Hello, I was using bardo more generally to refer to an intermediate state between lives, not necessarily the same way Tibetans define it.

PS Is that you in the avatar ?
Nop, I'm not a cute girl with glasses and a Chinese cloth. :tongue:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:05 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:01 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:55 pm
This seems like a late sutta, no?
  • kind of numerical, like a matika
  • no reference to where the discourse took place
  • no reference to who gave the discourse and in front of whom
  • reference to the 4 stages of enlightenment
  • reference to the 10 fetters
  • has absolutely zero practical use
Do all suttas referring to attainments and fetters are later addition? :reading:
Some scholars have suggested that. To me at least it makes sense.

I wouldn't trust the sutta, although I wouldn't discard it either.

Compare what is universally accepted as an EBT sutta, e.g. something from Snp, with this. The difference is obvious.
Some time ago I suspected if attainments were really delineated by the Buddha. I got a bit skeptical about them, but there are so many suttas citing them it's hard not to believe them.
But recently I noticed a pattern in suffering which correlates with the fetters. When your desire and hatred subside, restlessness/worry, pride and ignorance take control of your mind more easily. And if you noticed, those two groups are exactly the lower and higher fetters. Maybe a taste of what an anagami's life is. :tongue:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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