AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
User avatar
bridif1
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:42 pm

Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by bridif1 »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:00 pm It appears anatta is not related to these mundane teachings. MN 117 says there are two distinct types of dhamma but you appear to be mixing them up.

...

What lives? Where do the suttas refer to tendencies (anusaya) transmitted from past to future "lives"? Thanks

...

Stream of consciousness is not found in the suttas (apart from one irrelevant place). Also, consciousness is defined in the suttas as cognition (MN 43). In other words, it is unlikely consciousness (sense awareness) can carry "seeds". In fact, the suttas say: "consciousness is the seed (viññāṇaṃ bījaṃ)" rather than the carrier of the seed.
Thanks for your time!

To answer these three points:

1) While one could say, based on that sutta, there is RV with and without effluents, I think that both share some common ground: there are conditions, causes and effects. I think that's all that's important for the idea I presented.

2) Upadana is a condition for bhava. What I proposed (which is not an idea made by me) is that that process apply both for "one life" and for "two consecutive lives". Applied to one life, when there is upadana (which I suppose can be understood as kamma not ceased), the idea of self keeps arising and persisting; applied to two lives, upadana sets the basis for how a new life will begin, based on the mechanisms before mentioned in my last post. There's no need to talk about anusaya if that world is unfitting.

3) What I meant to say is that, if one read 'rebirth' through this lens, there's no need to posit a "stream of consciousness", nor "kamma seeds"; interaction, kamma and the effects of interaction is all what could be requiered to understand how the effects of one life affects and gives a base for a new life.

Kind regards!
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9996
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by DooDoot »

bridif1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:37 am 1) While one could say, based on that sutta, there is RV with and without effluents, I think that both share some common ground: there are conditions, causes and effects. I think that's all that's important for the idea I presented.
The refuge in the Dhamma is the Buddha spoke his Dhamma perfectly. Your questions & ideas appears to express the opposite, namely, the Buddha was a sloppy teacher requiring you to speculate.
bridif1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:37 am2) Upadana is a condition for bhava. What I proposed (which is not an idea made by me) is that that process apply both for "one life" and for "two consecutive lives".
Bhava is an asava (mental defilement) rather than a life or reincarnation. Sujato's ideas are obviously his own.
bridif1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:37 am Applied to one life, when there is upadana (which I suppose can be understood as kamma not ceased), the idea of self keeps arising and persisting; applied to two lives, upadana sets the basis for how a new life will begin, based on the mechanisms before mentioned in my last post. There's no need to talk about anusaya if that world is unfitting.
Upadana is not explicitly a cause for a new life. Since upadana probably arises at least 100 times a day for you, this does not mean there will be 100 x 365 x 80 new lives for you.
bridif1 wrote: Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:37 am3) What I meant to say is that, if one read 'rebirth' through this lens, there's no need to posit a "stream of consciousness", nor "kamma seeds"; interaction, kamma and the effects of interaction is all what could be requiered to understand how the effects of one life affects and gives a base for a new life.
New life comes from mother & father.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 966
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am
Contact:

Re: AN 4.131: bardo/antarabhava?

Post by salayatananirodha »

16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadhamma/
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
http://buddhadust.net/backmatter/indexe ... ta_toc.htm
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
Post Reply