Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Watana
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Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Watana »

Thanks to this wonderful website that logged me out (without telling me) while I was typing a huge text, I can no longer present you what I spent half an hour working on. Therefore, I'll take a more straightforward approach :

In your opinion, what was original Buddhism like, exactly ?
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DNS
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by DNS »

Bhantes Sujato and Brahmali wrote a good book. Here is the TLDR conclusion:
Bhante Sujato wrote:As per our book, The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, we believe that most of the texts included in what we call the early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) can be regarded as authentic. These texts are:

1. The 4 main nikayas in Pali
2. The six early books of the Khuddaka (Dhammapada, Udāna, Itivuttaka, Thera- and Therīgāthā, and Sutta Nipāta)
3. The Vinaya (especially the patimokkha and portions of the Khandhakas; but excluding the Parivāra, a later addition)
4. Such parallels to these texts as are found in Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan, etc.

All other Buddhist texts are later, and where they contain genuine words of the Buddha, these are quotes from the EBTs. In saying that these later texts are inauthentic, we are merely acknowledging the historical facts of their provenance. Whether such texts are true or beneficial expressions of the Dhamma is an entirely different matter.
It's basically pretty much in agreement with the earlier list by Thomas Rhys Davids:
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Pali_Canon
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Watana wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:12 am Thanks to this wonderful website that logged me out (without telling me) while I was typing a huge text, I can no longer present you what I spent half an hour working on. Therefore, I'll take a more straightforward approach :

In your opinion, what was original Buddhism like, exactly ?
    • The same issue to me for quite a long time. Posting after composing in a separate app is much safer. However, I'm increasingly quite at home with DWT compose-box in that the act of copying the whole text (each and every time before hitting preview/submit buttons) becomes my second nature. And, I've found, after some trials, I'm not very comfortable with the save draft button, but that "save draft" concept should be definitely welcomed.



Regarding the question:
  • In your opinion, what was original Buddhism like, exactly ?
    • Exactly & "like" are incompatible.
  • imo, however, for the likely question of "what was exact original Buddhism?"
    • My answer is no one exactly knows, these days.


Yet, for the likely related question of: "Wherein does lie the whole true essence of exact original Buddha's Teachings?"
  • My answer would be undoubtedly: Only the Classical Theravada, considering what is available these days.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Watana
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Watana »

I'm pretty sure I said "original Buddhism"... aka "pre-sectarian Buddhism", aka "the original teachings of the Tathāgata", aka "not a pile of sectarian BS made up by some bhikkhu", aka "not the Pali Canon", aka "neither the Therawāda nor any other sect (which are all incompatible with the original teachings of the Tathāgata)".

The Pali Canon is heterogenous, it's a fact, not a theory, and it proves that the original teachings of the Tathāgata were greatly distorted and misinterpreted. Saying that the 4 Nikāya are authentic is like saying that the Earth is flat, it's complete non-sense.
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by DooDoot »

Watana wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:12 am In your opinion, what was original Buddhism like, exactly ?
Original Buddhism falls into the four noble truths, therefore includes dependent origination, the three characteristics and emptiness. Its simply about the here & now cessation of suffering.
Bhikkhus, both formerly and now what I teach is suffering and the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi#sc56
Friends, just as the footprint of any living being that walks can be placed within an elephant’s footprint, and so the elephant’s footprint is declared the chief of them because of its great size; so too, all wholesome states can be included in the Four Noble Truths. In what four? In the noble truth of suffering, in the noble truth of the origin of suffering, in the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and in the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering. The removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for these five aggregates affected by clinging is the cessation of suffering.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/bodhi
These are the six elements’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted … uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins. ‘These are the six bases for contact’ … ‘These are the eighteen mental examinations’ … ‘These are the four noble truths’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, irreproachable, and uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi#sc11
Master Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And how does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?”

“Aggivessana, this is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds:

‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent.

Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self.

All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.’

This is how the ascetic Gotama guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato
Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhik ... _Sutta.htm
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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DooDoot
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by DooDoot »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:03 am My answer is no one exactly knows, these days.
The Noble Ones exactly know because they exactly know what dhammas extinguish suffering.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Dhammanando
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Dhammanando »

Watana wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:12 am I'm pretty sure I said "original Buddhism"... aka "pre-sectarian Buddhism", aka "the original teachings of the Tathāgata", aka "not a pile of sectarian BS made up by some bhikkhu", aka "not the Pali Canon", aka "neither the Therawāda nor any other sect (which are all incompatible with the original teachings of the Tathāgata)".
What you asked for was members' opinions on what original Buddhism was like. One such opinion is that of Classical Theravādins. It seems a silly sort of thread to start if you're only interested in hearing opinions that happen to coincide with your own.

Welcome, anyway, to Dhamma Wheel.

:hello:
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

I have no idea and that sometimes makes me sad. There are a bunch of things which I'll never know if it was what the Buddha taught. All we can do is practicing and see if it fits in the core teachings. If not, it should be discarded.
One way or the other, I try to follow my intuition. If a sutta seems suspect or too complex, my first assumption is that it's a later addition. It saves time. If the teachings were so difficult to retain, the tradition would not survive.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
Mr. Seek
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Mr. Seek »

Atthakavagga, Parayanavagga
Parts of DN 1, DN 2, MN 18, Snp 1.3, SN 1.1, etc

No numerical lists, 4 of this, 5 of that
No 8-fold path, no 4 noble truths, no 4 establishments of mindfulness, etc..

Knowledge of the Dhamma
Virtue
Sense restraint
Contentment
Abandoning hindrances
Mindfulness as not craving and not clinging to anything
Meditation or jhana as mindfulness on steroids
Unbinding as living 24/7 for and in mindfulness/jhana

Nothing to do with mantras, breath, etc.
No calm and no insight
Nothing to be attained, accumulated, or gained
Only shedding, letting go of suffering

Very simplified but still
Hashtag heretic. Might be wrong, who knows.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:56 am Atthakavagga, Parayanavagga
Parts of DN 1, DN 2, MN 18, Snp 1.3, SN 1.1, etc

No numerical lists, 4 of this, 5 of that
No 8-fold path, no 4 noble truths, no 4 establishments of mindfulness, etc..

Knowledge of the Dhamma
Virtue
Sense restraint
Contentment
Abandoning hindrances
Mindfulness as not craving and not clinging to anything
Meditation or jhana as mindfulness on steroids
Unbinding as living 24/7 for and in mindfulness/jhana

Nothing to do with mantras, breath, etc.
No calm and no insight
Nothing to be attained, accumulated, or gained
Only shedding, letting go of suffering

Hashtag heretic. Might be wrong, who knows.
Actually a quite interesting perspective. :spy:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Watana wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:12 am I'm pretty sure I said "original Buddhism"... aka "pre-sectarian Buddhism", aka "the original teachings of the Tathāgata", aka "not a pile of sectarian BS made up by some bhikkhu", aka "not the Pali Canon", aka "neither the Therawāda nor any other sect (which are all incompatible with the original teachings of the Tathāgata)".

The Pali Canon is heterogenous, it's a fact, not a theory, and it proves that the original teachings of the Tathāgata were greatly distorted and misinterpreted. Saying that the 4 Nikāya are authentic is like saying that the Earth is flat, it's complete non-sense.


oops...!

  • "pre-sectarian Buddhism", aka "the original teachings of the Tathāgata" ... they are not the identical things, if you may ask.
  • In other words, if accompanied by intelligent reasoning, how on earth have you come to the idea that original teachings of the Buddha are named pre-sectarian Buddhism, if I may ask? :rofl:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Firstly it was not sectarian in any sense. Everybody, no matter what sect, 'come and see'. Good in the beginning, middle and end.


Starting with the five virtuous practices, kindness and generosity, retaining good qualities and banishing bad ones, all the way to the goal...


The Buddha teaches that one can determine the validity of a tradition if "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."


He also, as he lay dying, gave his last instructions:

vayadhammā sankhārā
appamādena saṃpadethā


The are many translations so here is a paraphrasing aimed at capturing the meaning of what Buddha's last instructions were, cobbled together from a variety of translations



All composed things are anicca, constantly changing, rising and passing away.
Energetically cherish the good and guard the mind against what gives rise to affliction.



Be continuously aware of anicca and so work to purify the mind.
Simple in the beginning, middle and end...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:24 am :rofl: [/list]
This scares me a bit. How much of the Canon is infected with Jainism and Vedism? I know the cosmology and geological data come from them mostly. What if other things? Better not to speculate.
That's why it's not a good idea even using EBT as a definite authority and as a safe refuge.
Our own sense of truth must be above all, unfortunately.
DN 16 wrote:"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Kim OHara
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by Kim OHara »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:39 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:24 am :rofl: [/list]
This scares me a bit. How much of the Canon is infected with Jainism and Vedism? I know the cosmology and geological data come from them mostly. What if other things? Better not to speculate.
That's why it's not a good idea even using EBT as a definite authority and as a safe refuge.
Our own sense of truth must be above all, unfortunately.
DN 16 wrote:"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.
If you think of the dhamma as a "field of study" akin to (for instance) biology or geography rather than a "religion" akin to (e.g.) Islam or Greek Orthodox Christianity, most of your problems and fears will immediately fade away.
Why?
Because it allows you to see the historical Buddha as the inheritor of several religious and philosophical traditions, a brilliant teacher who integrated them and built on them and then passed the result on to his students, grand-students, etc ... some of whom also contributed significantly to the body of knowledge.
And in all cases, the test is, "Does this work?" Does it lead to suffering or to release from suffering?

:namaste:
Kim
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Your take on pre-sectarian Buddhism

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Kim OHara wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:17 am If you think of the dhamma as a "field of study" akin to (for instance) biology or geography rather than a "religion" akin to (e.g.) Islam or Greek Orthodox Christianity, most of your problems and fears will immediately fade away.
Why?
Because it allows you to see the historical Buddha as the inheritor of several religious and philosophical traditions, a brilliant teacher who integrated them and built on them and then passed the result on to his students, grand-students, etc ... some of whom also contributed significantly to the body of knowledge.
And in all cases, the test is, "Does this work?" Does it lead to suffering or to release from suffering?

:namaste:
Kim
I liked this perspective! Thanks, Kim! :anjali:
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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