MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by frank k »

MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-red.html

exerpt:
the elephant in the room
a major problem or controversial issue that is obviously present but avoided as a subject for discussion because it is more comfortable to do so.

"they've steadfastly ignored the elephant in the room: the ever-growing debt burden on graduates"

"they've purposely ignored the elephant and smoking gun evidence in MN 111 where the first 7 perception attainments do not require emerging, and the 8th and 9th attainments require emerging, and then reviewing (explicitly stated) PAST moments that occurred during the meditative absorption."
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by DooDoot »

what's your point (in plain english). thanks :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Ratnakar
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:34 am

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Ratnakar »

The point is we can do vipassana in jhana up to dimension of nothingness in dimension higher than that we need to emerge from them in order to do vipassana
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Pondera »

“Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there.It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an9.43

Not the case. No elephant in the room. Just a dusty old door mouse that needs to open the other suttas besides the majjima nikayas, ya dingus. 😉
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Ratnakar
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:34 am

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Ratnakar »

There is reason why an is the last nikaya because its credibility is worse than the other nikaya and there are 60% differences between an and its agama parrarel suggesting some corruptions may appear in an and its agama equivalent

For example how can you do vipassana when there is no perception to do the discernment

In other sutta buddha said that only after perception arise can then knowledge arise while in cessation of perception there is no perception at all
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by DooDoot »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:46 am The point is we can do vipassana in jhana up to dimension of nothingness in dimension higher than that we need to emerge from them in order to do vipassana
Not really. One dodgy sutta from the dodgy AN does not support the above.

Vipassana can be done in jhana but it is only a limited vipassana of the jhana. For example, the impermanent vibrations of the piti & sukha can be vipassana-ed but there is too much ekaggata for substantial perception of impermanence in respect to each aggregate. It is unlikely there is sufficient vipassana in the 1st jhana to end the asava.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Ratnakar
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:34 am

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Ratnakar »

The jhana sutta that you refers even support it you see that buddha refuse to talk about the 2 highest meditation attainment because you couldn't do insight there
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by robertk »

According to Theravada mundane Jhanas take a single object so there cannot be the development of insight during even first jhana.

So this topic looks to be a debate between the 'Early Buddhism' people. I will move it to that forum.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by frank k »

robertk wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:40 am According to Theravada mundane Jhanas take a single object so there cannot be the development of insight during even first jhana.

So this topic looks to be a debate between the 'Early Buddhism' people. I will move it to that forum.
🤦, in reaction to Robert doing exactly what I was complaining about in the article.

That's according to corrupted late Theravada, you do not speak for all of Theravada.
What Abhidhamma do you hold authoritative? Late Theravada contradicts early Abhidhamma.

Explain then, from your "Theravada" perspective, why the Buddha would need to talk about an emerging from the 8th and 9 attainments if it's already clearly understood it's not possible in any of the earlier 4 jhanas and 7 perception attainments.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by frank k »

This is probably a case of an elided sutta not getting expanded properly. Obviously it contradicts what the earlier AN 9.36, AN 9.41 say about what is possible while one is in those attainments, and reading the suttas immediately preceding and following AN 9.43, it's clear the goal of those suttas was not to talk about what's going on inside DURING those attainments, but to differentiate between vimutti by wisdom versus ceto vimutti, and what kaya sakkhi entails.
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:23 am
“Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there.It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an9.43

Not the case. No elephant in the room. Just a dusty old door mouse that needs to open the other suttas besides the majjima nikayas, ya dingus. 😉
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is becoming an obsession for you, isn’t it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Pondera »

Yeah. Sorry, Frank. It says what it says. And it’s not the only sutta to say so.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Pondera »

From AN. 9.43
Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a definitive sense.”
This is an old debate. Whether one sees dukkha, anicca, and anatta inside or outside the attainment. And whether, on the basis of such insight into the three marks, one can or cannot reach cessation (ie. Nibbana) inside or outside the attainment.

In the above sutta (which you have offered as a counter example) please show me where the meditator has “emerged” from the attainment.

Noticing that the Buddha says “they meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way” - tell me why such a thing is said after the defilements are ended.

And finally a question for you. When one enters nirodha Samapatti does or does not one have something to experience?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Ratnakar
Posts: 143
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:34 am

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Ratnakar »

frank k wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:34 pm This is probably a case of an elided sutta not getting expanded properly. Obviously it contradicts what the earlier AN 9.36, AN 9.41 say about what is possible while one is in those attainments, and reading the suttas immediately preceding and following AN 9.43, it's clear the goal of those suttas was not to talk about what's going on inside DURING those attainments, but to differentiate between vimutti by wisdom versus ceto vimutti, and what kaya sakkhi entails.
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:23 am
“Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there.It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an9.43

Not the case. No elephant in the room. Just a dusty old door mouse that needs to open the other suttas besides the majjima nikayas, ya dingus. 😉
We can still do subverbal vipassana while in formless attainment that's what buddha said so you are not quite correct here sir even in cessation of feeling and perception you can still do vipassana there
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3073
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

Post by Pondera »

Ratnakar wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 am
frank k wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:34 pm This is probably a case of an elided sutta not getting expanded properly. Obviously it contradicts what the earlier AN 9.36, AN 9.41 say about what is possible while one is in those attainments, and reading the suttas immediately preceding and following AN 9.43, it's clear the goal of those suttas was not to talk about what's going on inside DURING those attainments, but to differentiate between vimutti by wisdom versus ceto vimutti, and what kaya sakkhi entails.
Pondera wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:23 am

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/an9.43

Not the case. No elephant in the room. Just a dusty old door mouse that needs to open the other suttas besides the majjima nikayas, ya dingus. 😉
We can still do subverbal vipassana while in formless attainment that's what buddha said so you are not quite correct here sir even in cessation of feeling and perception you can still do vipassana there
As far as I understand, you’ve just stated that we can do “subverbal” (whatever that means) vipasanna while in formless attainment.

I have not argued otherwise. I believe we do “subverbal”
or even “verbal” vipasanna in all attainments up to and including Nirodha Samapatti.

In fact, when I entered my own cessation of perception and feeling - I thought out loud the following utterance (both profound and not heard of in a thousand years).

“It is on this very night that I will utterly SMASH the spokes that bind me to the wheel of becoming!”

At which point I entered final gnosis. Don’t believe me? Then where in the dingus of all that’s sacred would I come up with such a Pyle of bull crap? Who cares!!! For your Heath!
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Post Reply