MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

[Ratnakar]

As far as I understand, you’ve just stated that we can do “subverbal” (whatever that means) vipasanna while in formless attainment.

I have not argued otherwise. I believe we do “subverbal”
or even “verbal” vipasanna in all attainments up to and including Nirodha Samapatti.

In fact, when I entered my own cessation of perception and feeling - I thought out loud the following utterance (both profound and not heard of in a thousand years).

“It is on this very night that I will utterly SMASH the spokes that bind me to the wheel of becoming!”

At which point I entered final gnosis. Don’t believe me? Then where in the dingus of all that’s sacred would I come up with such a Pyle of bull crap? Who cares!!! For your Heath!

If you enter cessation of perception and feeling you enter nibbana so you are already an arahant bhante you have reached the supreme sanctuary

May I know the kind of meditation you do bhante ?

Buddha said in order for you to attain cessation of feeling you must fully develope the noble 8 fold path so the same path that will give you cessation of suffering will give you cessation of feeling too

Do you still feel pain ? If you are still experiencing suffering you still don't reach cessation of suffering and feeling(nirodha samapatti)

I practice “letting go” - “non grasping at consciousness”

Nirodha Samapatti lasts at most for seven days at a time. Like the Buddha, I have back pain which requires me to rest my back from time to time.

I do not consider my self an Arahant or even a Buddhist for that matter. I am a single individual who was predestined to endure immense mental suffering for a period of four years - followed by a two year spiritual journey culminating in the attainment of cessation.

That was at age 26. From that point on I remained in society and therefore had to earn a living.

I practice a (probably dumbed down version of jhana) meditation that is entirely satisfying and helps me cope with the everyday realities of life. In the absence of this meditation routine and coping mechanisms I’ve developed - I likely would not be able to maintain a job; a wife; a mortgage; etc.

What kind of meditation is that ? Does it involve breath ?

[Pondera]

@Ratnakar:

“Does it involve breath?”

Consider this:

The first four Jhanas are considered to be “form” jhanas.

What is form? Simply the earth element; the water; the fire; and the wind element.

Four “form” jhanas. Four types of form “elements”. So, even if you don’t know what I know - it seems to follow that there is a relationship here.

Also,

"Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with water. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people wash what is clean or unclean in water — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the water is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with fire. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when fire burns what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with wind. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when wind blows what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

The four elements; the four colours; space; and consciousness are the ten universal objects of meditation.

So, breath? Yes. When I develop meditation in tune with the wind element - I am keenly aware of my breath. In fact the starting point for me when I am developing meditation in tune with the wind element is my breathing diaphragm.

What is coarser? Earth or water?

Earth.

What is coarser? Water of fire?

Water.

What is coarser? Fire or wind?

Fire.

What is the least coarse of all the elements?

Wind.

That is why I develop wind last. First I master the earth element (as it exists in me). Then I move on to finer elements - finer states of rapture and celestial pleasure.

A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—directly knows earth as earth. But they don’t identify with earth, they don’t identify regarding earth, they don’t identify as earth, they don’t identify that ‘earth is mine’, they don’t take pleasure in earth. Why is that? Because they’re free of greed due to the ending of greed.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato

What does this mean? To take pleasure in earth?

It refers to jhanic rapture and pleasure. Because they have developed samadhi on the basis of meditation on earth - they turn away from the pleasure that arises from earth. That is the meaning of taking pleasure in earth - in other words - there is a celestial pleasure to be had by meditating on earth. By attaining samadhi thereby - one moves to insight - develops disenchantment - gets closer to freedom and release.

But how do you meditate on earth? You must recognize that it exists within you - within your heart - the stronghold of the heart must be let open so that our clinging to earth; water; fire; wind; red; blue; yellow; white; space; and consciousness - can all be experienced, understood, and given up. That is what is meant by “the heart’s release”.

That is what I do. That is what makes ME happy. I have never heard of my method of meditation from any other person. I don’t believe that there is anyone else in the world who practices meditation in the same way that I do. And I don’t lay claim to jhana.

But, when I read the upanisa sutta - it all lines up.

conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I have verified all of these experiences in that same order. As a lay person, I must meditate whenever the chance arises.

It truly is difficult to live the holy life in all of its glory and purity as a householder.

You must learn from suffering. There is plenty of suffering each and every day. You must learn to grab whatever amount of joy; rapture; tranquility; pleasure; and concentration that you can.

That’s all I can tell you at the moment.

[frank k]

while those 2 suttas don't have agama parallels, other most likely do.
See the many suttas under the "sabba sankhara samatho" section describing attainment of nirvana while in jhana. Some of those will have agama parallel most likely, you seem pretty eager to research that so please let us know your findings.

https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... l#tophead

Also see MN 52 11 doors to the deathless, where the 8th and 9th are omitted.

If you think it's possible then why did he refer to others to describe those 2 attainments ?

I think you misunderstood that part of AN 9.36. He's not saying he can not describe those 2 attainments, he's contrasting with the first 7 perception attainments, that for the last two it requires emerging from them first before attaining nirvana to describe it.

...
Have jhana sutta an agama equivalent ?
Have mn111 an agama equivalent ?

Do you think the buddha have attained,entered and emerged from the realm of neither perception nor non perception and cessation ?

Do you think it is not possible for buddha to describe his experience regarding those 2 highest dimensions ?

If you think it's possible then why did he refer to others to describe those 2 attainments ?

[Ratnakar]

@Ratnakar:

“Does it involve breath?”

Consider this:

The first four Jhanas are considered to be “form” jhanas.

What is form? Simply the earth element; the water; the fire; and the wind element.

Four “form” jhanas. Four types of form “elements”. So, even if you don’t know what I know - it seems to follow that there is a relationship here.

Also,

"Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with water. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people wash what is clean or unclean in water — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the water is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with water, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with fire. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when fire burns what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with fire, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

"Develop the meditation in tune with wind. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when wind blows what is clean or unclean — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — it is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with wind, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

The four elements; the four colours; space; and consciousness are the ten universal objects of meditation.

So, breath? Yes. When I develop meditation in tune with the wind element - I am keenly aware of my breath. In fact the starting point for me when I am developing meditation in tune with the wind element is my breathing diaphragm.

What is coarser? Earth or water?

Earth.

What is coarser? Water of fire?

Water.

What is coarser? Fire or wind?

Fire.

What is the least coarse of all the elements?

Wind.

That is why I develop wind last. First I master the earth element (as it exists in me). Then I move on to finer elements - finer states of rapture and celestial pleasure.

A mendicant who is perfected—with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment—directly knows earth as earth. But they don’t identify with earth, they don’t identify regarding earth, they don’t identify as earth, they don’t identify that ‘earth is mine’, they don’t take pleasure in earth. Why is that? Because they’re free of greed due to the ending of greed.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato

What does this mean? To take pleasure in earth?

It refers to jhanic rapture and pleasure. Because they have developed samadhi on the basis of meditation on earth - they turn away from the pleasure that arises from earth. That is the meaning of taking pleasure in earth - in other words - there is a celestial pleasure to be had by meditating on earth. By attaining samadhi thereby - one moves to insight - develops disenchantment - gets closer to freedom and release.

But how do you meditate on earth? You must recognize that it exists within you - within your heart - the stronghold of the heart must be let open so that our clinging to earth; water; fire; wind; red; blue; yellow; white; space; and consciousness - can all be experienced, understood, and given up. That is what is meant by “the heart’s release”.

That is what I do. That is what makes ME happy. I have never heard of my method of meditation from any other person. I don’t believe that there is anyone else in the world who practices meditation in the same way that I do. And I don’t lay claim to jhana.

But, when I read the upanisa sutta - it all lines up.

conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I have verified all of these experiences in that same order. As a lay person, I must meditate whenever the chance arises.

It truly is difficult to live the holy life in all of its glory and purity as a householder.

You must learn from suffering. There is plenty of suffering each and every day. You must learn to grab whatever amount of joy; rapture; tranquility; pleasure; and concentration that you can.

That’s all I can tell you at the moment.

Thanks bhante for the information

Yes I think I find some relationship here

First jhana(internal earth elements(hair,bone,etc) as meditation objects)

Second jhana(internal water elements(blood,urine) as meditation objects)

Third jhana(internal fire elements as meditation objects)

Fourth jhana(internal wind
elements(breath,fart,etc) as meditation objects)

Dimension of infinite space(internal space elements(pores,ear hole,etc) as meditation objects)

Dimension of infinite consciousness(internal consciousness(feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, vitakka,vicara,piti,sukha, attention) as meditation objects)

Dimension of nothingness(nothingness as meditation object)

Dimension of neither perception non perception (perception as meditation object)

Cessation of perception and feeling(objectless/signless meditation)

That's how I understand it

But can you reference me a sutta where buddha said the earth elements is coarser than the water elements ?

[Ratnakar]

Deleted

[Ratnakar]

I think you misunderstood that part of AN 9.36. He's not saying he can not describe those 2 attainments, he's contrasting with the first 7 perception attainments, that for the last two it requires emerging from them first before attaining nirvana to describe it.

an9.36
And so, mendicants, penetration to enlightenment extends as far as attainments with perception. But the two dimensions that depend on these—the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, and the cessation of perception and feeling—are properly explained by mendicants who are skilled in these attainments and skilled in emerging from them, after they’ve entered them and emerged from them.

if you are right then buddha should say

"Dimension of neither perception nor non perception is a basis for ending the defilements.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non perception and emerges from it, They contemplated the phenomena there—included in feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness ..."

Because

"an9.36
Mendicants, I say that the first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements. The second absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The third absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The fourth absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite space is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite consciousness is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of nothingness is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is also a basis for ending the defilements. The cessation of perception and feeling is also a basis for ending the defilements"

Here buddha already promised to explain all those 9 attainments not just 7 attainments

If you sir are right buddha should say this

"Mendicants, I say that the first absorption is a basis for ending the defilements. The second absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The third absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The fourth absorption is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite space is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of infinite consciousness is also a basis for ending the defilements. The dimension of nothingness is also a basis for ending the defilements."

Because in the above alternative quote of sutta the buddha won't even mention dimension of neither perception nor non perception because he didn't intend to explain it by himself in this case it's not a problem if there were no "that's what i said" regarding those 2 dimensions

"An9.36
That’s what I said, but why did I say it?"

Do you think the quote above should mean that mendicants instead of the buddha who said it and thus they not the buddha needed to explain it ?

And Clearly buddha didn't need to refer to mendicants if he could describe it by himself, sir please don't use an at all please use mn if possible for example mn52 because there is ma217 which is its agama equivalent in this way an9.36 is a young/late sutta while mn52 is an old/early sutta clearly you know these, Don't you sir ?

An9.43 which is quoted by your opponent to prove that you can get insight while in cessation attainment is a young sutta because it doesn't have its agama equivalent, clearly you will win this debate if you quote mn52 but instead you quote mn111 and an9.36 and both don't have theirs agamas equivalent

You clearly know mn111 has ekaggata while in first jhana yet you keep quoting it sir, I am adamyang02 from reddit sir so please bear with me I just don't want you to be ridiculed by others
It's not for my benefits but for your benefits sir to always quote old sutta that has agama equivalent in case your opponent quote sutta that contradicts yours you can always know that that sutta has none of agama equivalent so peace will penetrate your mind sir because you know that you are not on the wrong side

[Pondera]

Politely - please don’t refer to me as “bhante”. I am not a monk nor have I ever taken the triple refuge - so I am not a even a layman. “Householder” would be more appropriate

As for the requested sutta - I have never come across one that specifies an relative coarseness to the elements. I simply make this inference on my own - based on logic.

[frank k]

On early strata of suttas, see the entry under 'assaji' here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/ind ... #flink-18
There's a link to a detailed article on earliness of sutta.
And remember the Agama are incomplete sets from several EBT schools, so not having parallel is not sufficient evidence.

If anything, I'd consider much of the AN and SN to be earlier than MN and DN.

...
And Clearly buddha didn't need to refer to mendicants if he could describe it by himself, sir please don't use an at all please use mn if possible for example mn52 because there is ma217 which is its agama equivalent in this way an9.36 is a young/late sutta while mn52 is an old/early sutta clearly you know these, Don't you sir ?

An9.43 which is quoted by your opponent to prove that you can get insight while in cessation attainment is a young sutta because it doesn't have its agama equivalent, clearly you will win this debate if you quote mn52 but instead you quote mn111 and an9.36 and both don't have theirs agamas equivalent

You clearly know mn111 has ekaggata while in first jhana yet you keep quoting it sir, I am adamyang02 from reddit sir so please bear with me I just don't want you to be ridiculed by others
It's not for my benefits but for your benefits sir to always quote old sutta that has agama equivalent in case your opponent quote sutta that contradicts yours you can always know that that sutta has none of agama equivalent so peace will penetrate your mind sir because you know that you are not on the wrong side

[Ratnakar]

On early strata of suttas, see the entry under 'assaji' here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/w/whos-who/ind ... #flink-18
There's a link to a detailed article on earliness of sutta.
And remember the Agama are incomplete sets from several EBT schools, so not having parallel is not sufficient evidence.

If anything, I'd consider much of the AN and SN to be earlier than MN and DN.

...
And Clearly buddha didn't need to refer to mendicants if he could describe it by himself, sir please don't use an at all please use mn if possible for example mn52 because there is ma217 which is its agama equivalent in this way an9.36 is a young/late sutta while mn52 is an old/early sutta clearly you know these, Don't you sir ?

An9.43 which is quoted by your opponent to prove that you can get insight while in cessation attainment is a young sutta because it doesn't have its agama equivalent, clearly you will win this debate if you quote mn52 but instead you quote mn111 and an9.36 and both don't have theirs agamas equivalent

You clearly know mn111 has ekaggata while in first jhana yet you keep quoting it sir, I am adamyang02 from reddit sir so please bear with me I just don't want you to be ridiculed by others
It's not for my benefits but for your benefits sir to always quote old sutta that has agama equivalent in case your opponent quote sutta that contradicts yours you can always know that that sutta has none of agama equivalent so peace will penetrate your mind sir because you know that you are not on the wrong side

Thanks for the link, that is cool sir especially they say that patisambhidamagga was earlier than udana, ittuvaka and suttanipata, but what about an9.43 there it says you can get wisdom in Cessation attainment

An9.43
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness without a sequel.”

Even in an9.41 which you quoted earlier stated the same thing

An9.41
And so, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I was entering and remaining in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, my defilements were ended.

Do you really mean that conflicts between suttas should not be solved using agama references at all ?

[pitithefool]

The point is we can do vipassana in jhana up to dimension of nothingness in dimension higher than that we need to emerge from them in order to do vipassana

Not really. One dodgy sutta from the dodgy AN does not support the above.

Vipassana can be done in jhana but it is only a limited vipassana of the jhana. For example, the impermanent vibrations of the piti & sukha can be vipassana-ed but there is too much ekaggata for substantial perception of impermanence in respect to each aggregate. It is unlikely there is sufficient vipassana in the 1st jhana to end the asava.

Indeed, and it would seem that the vipassana had while in jhana is mostly a result of prior development of the mind.

[Ratnakar]

The point is we can do vipassana in jhana up to dimension of nothingness in dimension higher than that we need to emerge from them in order to do vipassana

Not really. One dodgy sutta from the dodgy AN does not support the above.

Vipassana can be done in jhana but it is only a limited vipassana of the jhana. For example, the impermanent vibrations of the piti & sukha can be vipassana-ed but there is too much ekaggata for substantial perception of impermanence in respect to each aggregate. It is unlikely there is sufficient vipassana in the 1st jhana to end the asava.

Indeed, and it would seem that the vipassana had while in jhana is mostly a result of prior development of the mind.

There are more suttas that describe that There is no ekaggata in first jhana

And ekaggata itself is not one pointed mind atleast according to earlier commentary like patisambhidamagga, it is when some objects or one object dominates your attention the opposite to ekaggata is a scattered mind where your attention goes all directions

There are many suttas that describe the ending of defilements that happens while in jhana
Of course these all depend on the answers of these 4 questions
Do you need jhana to attain the fruit of arahantship ?
Is the noble 8 fold path necessary to attain enlightenment ?
Do you need both samatha and vippassana to attain the enlightenment ?
Can you hear sound while in first jhana ?

[pitithefool]

There are more suttas that describe that There is no ekaggata in first jhana

I'll be totally honest, I'm in the camp of defining "vitakka-vicara" similarly to english "thought", in which the first jhana is defnitely the preliminary stage of concentration. Then yes, if we take my position, vipassana definitely happens while in the first jhana.

However, stronger concentration than that, and we have like what DD was saying above, in which the mind is more or less sorting through things automatically and without conscious effort. Cognitive psychologists would call this "automatic processing" whereas earlier stages of concentration would involve what's called "controlled processing".

And ekaggata itself is not one pointed mind atleast according to earlier commentary like patisambhidamagga, it is when some objects or one object dominates your attention the opposite to ekaggata is a scattered mind where your attention goes all directions

Agree here for sure. This just means that the mind is completely absorbed in the object, not only in attention but thought (vitakka-vicara) as well.

There are many suttas that describe the ending of defilements that happens while in jhana
Of course these all depend on the answers of these 4 questions
Do you need jhana to attain the fruit of arahantship ?
Is the noble 8 fold path necessary to attain enlightenment ?
Do you need both samatha and vippassana to attain the enlightenment ?
Can you hear sound while in first jhana ?

Yes, yes, yes, and depends on how you choose to define both "first jhana" and "hear sound".

[Ratnakar]

Yes, yes, yes, and depends on how you choose to define both "first jhana" and "hear sound".

The first jhana and the ability to hear sound can be knowed after we answer those 4 questions