MN 111 Elephant in the room, smoking gun, red herrings, sophistry

[Ratnakar]

This is probably a case of an elided sutta not getting expanded properly. Obviously it contradicts what the earlier AN 9.36, AN 9.41 say about what is possible while one is in those attainments, and reading the suttas immediately preceding and following AN 9.43, it's clear the goal of those suttas was not to talk about what's going on inside DURING those attainments, but to differentiate between vimutti by wisdom versus ceto vimutti, and what kaya sakkhi entails.

We can still do subverbal vipassana while in formless attainment that's what buddha said so you are not quite correct here sir even in cessation of feeling and perception you can still do vipassana there

As far as I understand, you’ve just stated that we can do “subverbal” (whatever that means) vipasanna while in formless attainment.

I have not argued otherwise. I believe we do “subverbal”
or even “verbal” vipasanna in all attainments up to and including Nirodha Samapatti.

In fact, when I entered my own cessation of perception and feeling - I thought out loud the following utterance (both profound and not heard of in a thousand years).

“It is on this very night that I will utterly SMASH the spokes that bind me to the wheel of becoming!”

At which point I entered final gnosis. Don’t believe me? Then where in the dingus of all that’s sacred would I come up with such a Pyle of bull crap? Who cares!!! For your Heath!

If you enter cessation of perception and feeling you enter nibbana so you are already an arahant bhante you have reached the supreme sanctuary

May I know the kind of meditation you do bhante ?

Buddha said in order for you to attain cessation of feeling you must fully develope the noble 8 fold path so the same path that will give you cessation of suffering will give you cessation of feeling too

Do you still feel pain ? If you are still experiencing suffering you still don't reach cessation of suffering and feeling(nirodha samapatti)

[frank k]

See OP with link to article where I show exactly the text has emergence from 8th and 9th attainment but not the first 7.
I don't have personal experience with 9th attainment, if you do, congrats to you. Are you claiming arahantship?
It sounds like you are. The suttas are not clear whether only arahants or ariya can enter 9th attainment, or whether upon emerging from a successful 9th attainment, one must be an arahant.

From AN. 9.43

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a definitive sense.”

This is an old debate. Whether one sees dukkha, anicca, and anatta inside or outside the attainment. And whether, on the basis of such insight into the three marks, one can or cannot reach cessation (ie. Nibbana) inside or outside the attainment.

In the above sutta (which you have offered as a counter example) please show me where the meditator has “emerged” from the attainment.

Noticing that the Buddha says “they meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way” - tell me why such a thing is said after the defilements are ended.

And finally a question for you. When one enters nirodha Samapatti does or does not one have something to experience?

[frank k]

This is becoming an obsession for you, isn’t it.

And the healthy thing to do is what? Pretend Vism. doesn't redefine jhana into a completely different samadhi training system radically different than what the Buddha taught? Pretend Abhidhamma is not heretical with respect to contradictions with the suttas? Pretend all Buddhist paths lead to the same mountain top and we should just hold hands and sing cumbayah?

You go on living your healthy life then.

[Ceisiwr]

This is becoming an obsession for you, isn’t it.

And the healthy thing to do is what? Pretend Vism. doesn't redefine jhana into a completely different samadhi training system radically different than what the Buddha taught? Pretend Abhidhamma is not heretical with respect to contradictions with the suttas? Pretend all Buddhist paths lead to the same mountain top and we should just hold hands and sing cumbayah?

You go on living your healthy life then.

It’s healthy not to be obsessed, yes.

[dharmacorps]

These responses (obsessing, "pretending" etc) are not the only ones in dealing with points of dhamma one finds difficult. Those are extremes to be sure.

[Ratnakar]

This is becoming an obsession for you, isn’t it.

And the healthy thing to do is what? Pretend Vism. doesn't redefine jhana into a completely different samadhi training system radically different than what the Buddha taught? Pretend Abhidhamma is not heretical with respect to contradictions with the suttas? Pretend all Buddhist paths lead to the same mountain top and we should just hold hands and sing cumbayah?

You go on living your healthy life then.

It’s healthy not to be obsessed, yes.

Do you think buddha is an obsessed too because he keeps repeating the same thing over and over again ?

Both buddha and Frank believed they delivered a message called right view and truth and buddha said he can't be blamed even if you don't get nibbana after knowing his teaching

if you want to know this sutta I will give you this sutta so even if frank told you the truth and you don't reach nibbana frank receive no blame here the problem is you not the frank or the buddha,

And it's about you too sir, buddha said if by telling others you grow your skillful qualities then you need to tell whatever you want to tell but if by telling others something you grow the unskillful qualities buddha said it's better for you to silent

Look I don't agree with mr frank here, I sir still think that you can still do vippassana while in cessation of perception and feeling but somehow I need to let mr frank to prove his points but of course sir I am no one here to tell to believe in frank I am even no one here sir to tell you to believe in buddha

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but please remember one thing, please sir let mr frank to prove his points

Metta

[Ceisiwr]

And the healthy thing to do is what? Pretend Vism. doesn't redefine jhana into a completely different samadhi training system radically different than what the Buddha taught? Pretend Abhidhamma is not heretical with respect to contradictions with the suttas? Pretend all Buddhist paths lead to the same mountain top and we should just hold hands and sing cumbayah?

You go on living your healthy life then.

It’s healthy not to be obsessed, yes.

Do you think buddha is an obsessed too because he keeps repeating the same thing over and over again ?

Both buddha and Frank believed they delivered a message called right view and truth and buddha said he can't be blamed even if you don't get nibbana after knowing his teaching

if you want to know this sutta I will give you this sutta so even if frank told you the truth and you don't reach nibbana frank receive no blame here the problem is you not the frank or the buddha,

And it's about you too sir, buddha said if by telling others you grow your skillful qualities then you need to tell whatever you want to tell but if by telling others something you grow the unskillful qualities buddha said it's better for you to silent

Look I don't agree with mr frank here, I sir still think that you can still do vippassana while in cessation of perception and feeling but somehow I need to let mr frank to prove his points but of course sir I am no one here to tell to believe in frank I am even no one here sir to tell you to believe in buddha

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but please remember one thing, please sir let mr frank to prove his points

Metta

The Buddha didn’t repeat the same one point over and over. He didn’t spend his entire time talking about Jhana, unlike Frank.

[Ratnakar]

It’s healthy not to be obsessed, yes.

Do you think buddha is an obsessed too because he keeps repeating the same thing over and over again ?

Both buddha and Frank believed they delivered a message called right view and truth and buddha said he can't be blamed even if you don't get nibbana after knowing his teaching

if you want to know this sutta I will give you this sutta so even if frank told you the truth and you don't reach nibbana frank receive no blame here the problem is you not the frank or the buddha,

And it's about you too sir, buddha said if by telling others you grow your skillful qualities then you need to tell whatever you want to tell but if by telling others something you grow the unskillful qualities buddha said it's better for you to silent

Look I don't agree with mr frank here, I sir still think that you can still do vippassana while in cessation of perception and feeling but somehow I need to let mr frank to prove his points but of course sir I am no one here to tell to believe in frank I am even no one here sir to tell you to believe in buddha

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but please remember one thing, please sir let mr frank to prove his points

Metta

The Buddha didn’t repeat the same one point over and over. He didn’t spend his entire time talking about Jhana, unlike Frank.

Unfortunately this is not quite right sir, if you read all those 7000 suttas and those don't even include unrecorded suttas ,buddha taught dhamma for 40 years so the unrecorded suttas would be much larger and even in that few recorded suttas buddha repeated about jhana multiple times if not hundred of times

If you were ananda disciple of buddha you would hear the same thing over and over again especially the core concepts like dependent origination and jhanas because ananda sometimes accompanied the buddha while buddha needs to repeat the same thing to new disciples

[Ratnakar]

See OP with link to article where I show exactly the text has emergence from 8th and 9th attainment but not the first 7.
I don't have personal experience with 9th attainment, if you do, congrats to you. Are you claiming arahantship?
It sounds like you are. The suttas are not clear whether only arahants or ariya can enter 9th attainment, or whether upon emerging from a successful 9th attainment, one must be an arahant.

From AN. 9.43

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a definitive sense.”

This is an old debate. Whether one sees dukkha, anicca, and anatta inside or outside the attainment. And whether, on the basis of such insight into the three marks, one can or cannot reach cessation (ie. Nibbana) inside or outside the attainment.

In the above sutta (which you have offered as a counter example) please show me where the meditator has “emerged” from the attainment.

Noticing that the Buddha says “they meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way” - tell me why such a thing is said after the defilements are ended.

And finally a question for you. When one enters nirodha Samapatti does or does not one have something to experience?

Sir I want you to explain more about this sutta if indeed you can't do insight while in cessation of perception and feeling

An 9.44
Reverend, they speak of a person called ‘freed by wisdom’. What is the one freed by wisdom that the Buddha spoke of?”

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. And they understand that with wisdom. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed by wisdom in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. And they understand that with wisdom. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the one freed by wisdom in a definitive sense.”

Please bear with me sir

[Ratnakar]

I change my opinion I don't think you can do insight while being in dimension of neither perception nor non perception or even cessation attainment

To people who believe otherwise let me ask you this question and you can answer whatever you wants

Is it possible to you to do insight while you have Deep sleep ? If you can't do that let alone dimension of neither perception nor non perception or even cessation of perception and feeling

I am talking about deep sleep here not normal sleep you only know you have sleep after you sleep not during the sleep you only know you have sleep for 1 minute even though in reality you sleep for 8 hours if you can't do vippassana while sleeping which is still mundane thing you can imagine the dimension of neither perception nor non perception or even cessation

in the an sutta there is no mention of emergence which means there is possibility that you actually do vippassana after you emerge from the attainment because we don't know whether we get the insight after emergence or before it while mn111 is quite clear that we do that after emergence not before it

Honestly I want to see the an agama equivalent here to double check the sutta

When an an sutta conflicts with other sutta you should not believe them ,not all suttas is equal

Here the an conflicts with not only mn111 but dn9 buddha said it's impossible for you get insight if firstly you don't arise perception , you need perception to get insight while in cessation of perception and feeling there is no perception at all to get the insight/knowledge

Please refer me with another sutta that explicitly mention emerge from cessation attainment so we can know for sure whether the insight is received after emergence or before it

Metta

[frank k]

...
Please refer me with another sutta that explicitly mention emerge from cessation attainment so we can know for sure whether the insight is received after emergence or before it

Metta

AN 9.36, MN 43, (or MN 44) to name a few.

[Ratnakar]

...
Please refer me with another sutta that explicitly mention emerge from cessation attainment so we can know for sure whether the insight is received after emergence or before it

Metta

AN 9.36, MN 43, (or MN 44) to name a few.

I mean you need to find suttas that contains both emergence from cessation attainment and the use of wisdom eye for example mn111

Well then, sir, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like

Mn111
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.

When did he use wisdom before emergence or after emergence ?

Did his defilements came to an end before emergence or after emergence ?

[frank k]

Mn111
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.

When did he use wisdom before emergence or after emergence ?

Did his defilements came to an end before emergence or after emergence ?

If you cross reference with what happens in AN 9.36 in nirodha,
https://lucid24.org/an/an09/an09-0036/i ... #flink-11
it's clear it has to be after emergence that one attains arahantship, not during nirodha.
Since the perception attainemnts 1-7 in AN 9.36 describe arahantship happening DURING the atainment.

[Ratnakar]

Mn111
Furthermore, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he entered and remained in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, his defilements came to an end.And he emerged from that attainment with mindfulness.

When did he use wisdom before emergence or after emergence ?

Did his defilements came to an end before emergence or after emergence ?

If you cross reference with what happens in AN 9.36 in nirodha,
https://lucid24.org/an/an09/an09-0036/i ... #flink-11
it's clear it has to be after emergence that one attains arahantship, not during nirodha.
Since the perception attainemnts 1-7 in AN 9.36 describe arahantship happening DURING the atainment.

Have jhana sutta an agama equivalent ?
Have mn111 an agama equivalent ?

Do you think the buddha have attained,entered and emerged from the realm of neither perception nor non perception and cessation ?

Do you think it is not possible for buddha to describe his experience regarding those 2 highest dimensions ?

If you think it's possible then why did he refer to others to describe those 2 attainments ?

[Pondera]

We can still do subverbal vipassana while in formless attainment that's what buddha said so you are not quite correct here sir even in cessation of feeling and perception you can still do vipassana there

As far as I understand, you’ve just stated that we can do “subverbal” (whatever that means) vipasanna while in formless attainment.

I have not argued otherwise. I believe we do “subverbal”
or even “verbal” vipasanna in all attainments up to and including Nirodha Samapatti.

In fact, when I entered my own cessation of perception and feeling - I thought out loud the following utterance (both profound and not heard of in a thousand years).

“It is on this very night that I will utterly SMASH the spokes that bind me to the wheel of becoming!”

At which point I entered final gnosis. Don’t believe me? Then where in the dingus of all that’s sacred would I come up with such a Pyle of bull crap? Who cares!!! For your Heath!

If you enter cessation of perception and feeling you enter nibbana so you are already an arahant bhante you have reached the supreme sanctuary

May I know the kind of meditation you do bhante ?

Buddha said in order for you to attain cessation of feeling you must fully develope the noble 8 fold path so the same path that will give you cessation of suffering will give you cessation of feeling too

Do you still feel pain ? If you are still experiencing suffering you still don't reach cessation of suffering and feeling(nirodha samapatti)

I practice “letting go” - “non grasping at consciousness”

Nirodha Samapatti lasts at most for seven days at a time. Like the Buddha, I have back pain which requires me to rest my back from time to time.

I do not consider my self an Arahant or even a Buddhist for that matter. I am a single individual who was predestined to endure immense mental suffering for a period of four years - followed by a two year spiritual journey culminating in the attainment of cessation.

That was at age 26. From that point on I remained in society and therefore had to earn a living.

I practice a (probably dumbed down version of jhana) meditation that is entirely satisfying and helps me cope with the everyday realities of life. In the absence of this meditation routine and coping mechanisms I’ve developed - I likely would not be able to maintain a job; a wife; a mortgage; etc.