The Buddha's Annihilationist Beginnings

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
auto
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Re: The Buddha's Annihilationist Beginnings

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 2:22 pm Two things in relation to this. First, we are told that upon his awakening the Buddha wanted to find Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta, his former teachers, as they would easily grasp the Dhamma and awakening. Sadly, they had already died but the fact that he sought out Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta first could perhaps be because they held the foremost view among the ascetics, namely the annihilationist doctrine.
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Thoughts?
He knew before his awakening that the 8th thingy won't lead to awakening but only a rebirth on that realm.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, bhāradvāja, etadahosi:
‘This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth in dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’
‘nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti.
Realizing that this teaching was inadequate, I left disappointed.
So kho ahaṁ, bhāradvāja, taṁ dhammaṁ analaṅkaritvā tasmā dhammā nibbijja apakkamiṁ.
In sum the buddha knew already that the 8th doesn't "annihilate", before his enlightenment. But that's not the point either, because you don't seem to be knowing what annihilationism is using it synonymously with nibbana.
ToVincent
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Re: The Buddha's Annihilationist Beginnings

Post by ToVincent »

Buddha wrote:"This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth (viz. to cause to fall towards*) the field of neither perception nor non-perception.'
"nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti."

*Note that upapatti does not really mean "rebirth" (among) - but instead, it literally means "to cause to fall towards".

That is to say that the Buddha still believed that, this was way below the final stage of nibbāna. Namely a debasement from vijja.

Yet, that does not necessarily mean that Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputra were annihilationists.
Nor does it necessarily mean that they believed that they could be reborn in that state, after death.
There is no surety about that.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The Buddha's Annihilationist Beginnings

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:36 pm
Buddha wrote:"This teaching doesn’t lead to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. It only leads as far as rebirth (viz. to cause to fall towards*) the field of neither perception nor non-perception.'
"nāyaṁ dhammo nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṁvattati, yāvadeva nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpapattiyā’ti."

*Note that upapatti does not really mean "rebirth" (among) - but instead, it literally means "to cause to fall towards".

That is to say that the Buddha still believed that, this was way below the final stage of nibbāna. Namely a debasement from vijja.

Yet, that does not necessarily mean that Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputra were annihilationists.
Nor does it necessarily mean that they believed that they could be reborn in that state, after death.
There is no surety about that.
.
.
they knew, they found out the state by themselves
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:So I approached Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him:
Atha khvāhaṁ, bhāradvāja, yena āḷāro kālāmo tenupasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā āḷāraṁ kālāmaṁ etadavocaṁ:
‘Reverend Kālāma, to what extent do you say you’ve realized this teaching with your own insight?’
‘kittāvatā no, āvuso kālāma, imaṁ dhammaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharāmīti pavedesī’ti?
When I said this, he declared the dimension of nothingness.
Evaṁ vutte, bhāradvāja, āḷāro kālāmo ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ pavedesi.
one could speculate that the teaching is default and what domain one land to depends on personal realization.
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