Translation of SA 359

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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starter
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Translation of SA 359

Post by starter »

Dear friends,

Thanks for your previous help. Some of you asked me some questions in my earlier posts. I'll try to reply to them when I get more time.

Here is the translations of SA 359 from Ven. Analayo and me:

"... 世尊告诸比丘。若思量.若妄想生。彼使攀缘识住。有攀缘识住故。有未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦。如是纯大苦聚集。若不思量.不妄想。无使无攀缘识住。无攀缘识住故。于未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦灭。如是纯大苦聚灭..."

My translation:

"... If one ponders and ruminates, if one gives rise to deluded thinking, it leads to the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness (攀缘识). Because there is the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is future birth, aging, illness, death, ..."

"... If one does not ponder and ruminate, if one does not give rise to deluded thinking, there will be no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness. Because there is no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is no future birth, aging, illness, death, ... Such is the ending of all Dhukkha."

Ven. Analayo's translation:

"If one intends, if one gives rise to deluded conceptu-
alizations, those underlying tendencies form an object for
the establishment of consciousness. Because there is an
object for the establishment of consciousness, there is
future birth, old age, disease, and death." https://www.scribd.com/read/375190134/R ... t-Research#

Metta,

Starter
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confusedlayman
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Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by confusedlayman »

starter wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:44 pm Dear friends,

Thanks for your previous help. Some of you asked me some questions in my earlier posts. I'll try to reply to them when I get more time.

Here is the translations of SA 359 from Ven. Analayo and me:

"... 世尊告诸比丘。若思量.若妄想生。彼使攀缘识住。有攀缘识住故。有未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦。如是纯大苦聚集。若不思量.不妄想。无使无攀缘识住。无攀缘识住故。于未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦灭。如是纯大苦聚灭..."

My translation:

"... If one ponders and ruminates, if one gives rise to deluded thinking, it leads to the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness (攀缘识). Because there is the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is future birth, aging, illness, death, ..."

"... If one does not ponder and ruminate, if one does not give rise to deluded thinking, there will be no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness. Because there is no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is no future birth, aging, illness, death, ... Such is the ending of all Dhukkha."

Ven. Analayo's translation:

"If one intends, if one gives rise to deluded conceptu-
alizations, those underlying tendencies form an object for
the establishment of consciousness. Because there is an
object for the establishment of consciousness, there is
future birth, old age, disease, and death." https://www.scribd.com/read/375190134/R ... t-Research#

Metta,

Starter
So whenever one should think, they think like in satipatanna see everything as non self or one should stop thinking?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by Coëmgenu »

攀緣 is actually irregularly translating "ālambana" here. No "karma." See DDB, username "guest" with no password if you don't yet know about this wonderful dictionary AC Muller compiled with others. His magnum opus, IMO.

http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xp ... 0%E7%BC%98
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by Coëmgenu »

若思量 ceteti yañca
若妄想 pakappeti yañca
生彼使 anuseti (?)
攀緣 ārammaṇametaṃ
(*hoti)
識 viññāṇassa
住 ṭhitiyā

Direct correspondences between the Chinese and Pāli. The "hoti" has to be navigated differently in Chinese. The Chinese has "arising" (生) near the word "anuseti" that is not in the Pāli or it just translates anuseti irregularly. I think 生 might be there to clarify 彼使 as "anuseti" specifically, but 彼使 or 思量 and 妄想 could have been specified as "arising" in the original Indic text. It depends if the intentions and deluded conceptualization arise or the 彼使攀緣識 arises. I'm tempted to say the latter, against the Ven Analayo translation, but I assume he knows something I don't about why it is the intentions and delusions that arise 生 and not the ārammaṇa. If 生 is a strange way of accommodating "hoti" in the Chinese, that would skew the reading in favour of the object for the established consciousness being that which arises IMO.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by Pulsar »

Dearest Starter. I love when you post these translations. They are refreshing. You were gone for a while, and I missed you.
You wrote "
... If one ponders and ruminates, if one gives rise to deluded thinking, it leads to the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness (攀缘识). Because there is the establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is future birth, aging, illness, death, ..."

"... If one does not ponder and ruminate, if one does not give rise to deluded thinking, there will be no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness. Because there is no establishment of the grasping karmic consciousness, there is no future birth, aging, illness, death, ... Such is the ending of all Dhukkha."
The way you present it, at first reading, meaning just sank in, like how do they say? hit the nail on the head.

I think with Analayo's, his translation is very scholarly, he tries to pack too much in, like intention and object. That kind of translation distracts me, esp the words intention and object, my mind tries to chase after these words instead of following what is being said.

With yours, you neither say Intention nor object... but these things are already implied in the words ponders and ruminates. It is understood that pondering and ruminating, begin subsequent to intention, and you can dismiss object easily since it is already implied in grasping karmic consciousness. To me the difference in the two translations is: first one comes across as one executed by a person with a great understanding of dhamma, and second one more like one executed by a scholar.
I prefer dhammic translations to scholarly translations. One must not sacrifice the intention embedded in the Dhamma in order to get a verbally more presentable translation. Language is there to serve a purpose only.

With love :candle:
PS number of the corresponding sutta in the Samyutta nikaya? if you know it please.
thomaslaw
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Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by thomaslaw »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:17 pm 若思量 ceteti yañca
若妄想 pakappeti yañca
生彼使 anuseti (?)
攀緣 ārammaṇametaṃ
(*hoti)
識 viññāṇassa
住 ṭhitiyā

Direct correspondences between the Chinese and Pāli. The "hoti" has to be navigated differently in Chinese. The Chinese has "arising" (生) near the word "anuseti" that is not in the Pāli or it just translates anuseti irregularly. I think 生 might be there to clarify 彼使 as "anuseti" specifically, but 彼使 or 思量 and 妄想 could have been specified as "arising" in the original Indic text. It depends if the intentions and deluded conceptualization arise or the 彼使攀緣識 arises. I'm tempted to say the latter, against the Ven Analayo translation, but I assume he knows something I don't about why it is the intentions and delusions that arise 生 and not the ārammaṇa. If 生 is a strange way of accommodating "hoti" in the Chinese, that would skew the reading in favour of the object for the established consciousness being that which arises IMO.
The attached pdf on a page of SA 360 translation by Choong Mun-keat in p. 170 (cf. p. 171 on SA 359) from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism may be useful.
Attachments
p. 171 in the-fundamental-teachings-of-early-buddhism_choong-mun-keat 2000.pdf
(68.74 KiB) Downloaded 55 times
p. 170 in the-fundamental-teachings-of-e-buddhism_choong-mun-keat 2000.pdf
(75.71 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
asahi
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Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by asahi »

Hello friends , this is for your reference .
Perhaps you might find it helpful .

若思量 in the process of thinking
若妄想生 if delusion arises
彼使 that defilement
攀缘识住 (is where) the consciousness get established


In the process of thinking if delusion arises , the consciousness get established in that defilement .

Best wishes
No bashing No gossiping
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by Pulsar »

Thanks thomaslaw for the attachments .. i.e. Choong Man-Keat.
His particular note on bending,
In this case the SA version (SA 361) has "name-and-material form" in place of "a bending'
clears up a great deal of confusion, regarding differences in Pali and Chinese translations.
Originally the Pali translator apparently understood what was meant by bending but it created confusion among the later Theravadins. The way the Chinese translated, there was no room left for confusion.
With regards :candle:
PS just dug up BB version of MN 140. He writes inclination instead of bending. It reads
When there is inclination (is it bending? sure), there is coming and going, there is passing away and being reborn
What a nightmare, how the choice of word can affect the communication of a Dhammic idea. If I had to choose, I think bending is better, than BB's inclination, and "name-and-material form" which is the same as name and form, is best. Plain beautiful facts regarding DO without poetry of bending or inclination.
There was a time I used to rack my brain regards these two suttas SN12.39 and SN 12.40.
No more, thanks to you guys and the Chinese monks.
starter
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Translation of SA 359

Post by starter »

Hi friends,

Thanks for a great discussion. After considering SA (SA 359, SA 360 and SA 361) and SN (SN12. 39, SN 12. 38 and SN 12.40), I propose to reformat SA 359:

"... 世尊告诸比丘。若思量.若妄想, 生彼使 攀缘识住。有攀缘识住故。有未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦。如是纯大苦聚集。若不思量.不妄想, 无使无攀缘识住。无攀缘识住故, 于未来世生.老.病.死.忧.悲.恼苦灭。如是纯大苦聚灭..."

And I propose to translate the above as:

"... If one thinks and ponders -- one thinks deludedly, those underlying tendencies arise, and the grasping (karmic) consciousness (攀缘识) gets established. Because there is the establishment of the grasping (karmic) consciousness, there is future birth, aging, illness, death, ..."

"... If one does not think and ponder -- one does not think deludedly, there will be no those underlying tendencies, and no establishment of the grasping (karmic) consciousness. Because there is no establishment of the grasping (karmic) consciousness, there is no future birth, aging, illness, death, ... Such is the ending of all Dhukkha."

In MN 19:
“Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind."

Metta,

Starter
:anjali:
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