Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

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Mangaka
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Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by Mangaka »

Hello everyone, I wish you a good day.
I would like to have a question about second sutta of Dīgha Nikāya.

Exactly the last parts of this sutta, after the king left. The eye of Dhamma did not open in him because of what he has done. There is five more things (wrong deeds) which will cause the same result (a person cannot attain enlightenment during this lifetime), if I understand correctly.

My questions are:

1) The king had to wait until next life to corrects his deeds and then try to attain enlightenment?

2) If his bad deeds weren't intention... if it was for example (a)by mistake, (b)because of ignorance, (c)because of negligence, (d)inattention etc.
Simply said, if it wasn't a simple intention to take a life of his father... then he could attain enlightenment during this life?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by confusedlayman »

Mangaka wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:11 am Hello everyone, I wish you a good day.
I would like to have a question about second sutta of Dīgha Nikāya.

Exactly the last parts of this sutta, after the king left. The eye of Dhamma did not open in him because of what he has done. There is five more things (wrong deeds) which will cause the same result (a person cannot attain enlightenment during this lifetime), if I understand correctly.

My questions are:

1) The king had to wait until next life to corrects his deeds and then try to attain enlightenment?

2) If his bad deeds weren't intention... if it was for example (a)by mistake, (b)because of ignorance, (c)because of negligence, (d)inattention etc.
Simply said, if it wasn't a simple intention to take a life of his father... then he could attain enlightenment during this life?
If no patricide then yes
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Mangaka
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by Mangaka »

What I was meaning was intention of his deed exactly.
I will try to explain.
Kamma is connected with intention, right? If, for example, a driver will cause accident (he knew that he should be careful but he was negligent, ignorant, simply said he didn't care).
The result of his serious deed will be different than in the
second case, where he would intend to do so... if I understand correctly.

Question is, if this would apply to those serious deeds which prevents the attainment of enlightenment in this life.
For me it looked like the king wanted to make amends.
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DooDoot
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by DooDoot »

Mangaka wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:00 pm What I was meaning was intention of his deed exactly.

For me it looked like the king wanted to make amends.
The sutta says the intention of the king was rooted in greed, as follows:
Indeed, great king, you made a mistake. It was foolish, stupid, and unskillful of you to take the life of your father, a just and principled king, for the sake of sovereignty.
This damning intention caused the king's mind to be broken:
The king is broken, mendicants,
:candle:
Mangaka wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:11 am My questions are:

1) The king had to wait until next life to corrects his deeds and then try to attain enlightenment?
While i don't personally believe it, AN 5.129 appears to say such actions are "incurable" ("atekicchā"). Like many here, you do not appear to consider his next life or next many lives might be hell. What makes you think he will have a chance of enlightenment in the next life? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Mangaka
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by Mangaka »

I think I didn't know about sutta from AN 5.129.
I thought that the king could try to make amends after experiencing the consequences of his very bad kamma.
But if I understand correctly (AN 5.129) the king is trapped in samsara forever with no chance for enlightenment in future lives?
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DooDoot
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by DooDoot »

Mangaka wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:46 am But if I understand correctly (AN 5.129) the king is trapped in samsara forever with no chance for enlightenment in future lives?
I don't know. I offered my disbelief in AN 5.129. I also don't believe in DN 2.

If AN 5.129 is true because a person has such strong evil capacity to kill their good father; then it seems DN 2 is illogical when it says the King could have attained stream-entry.

I doubt killing one's father is the cause of not attaining stream-entry. Instead, i imagine the inherent capacity to kill one's father is the cause of not attaining stream-entry.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Dīgha Nikāya second sutta

Post by salayatananirodha »

Mangaka wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:46 am I think I didn't know about sutta from AN 5.129.
I thought that the king could try to make amends after experiencing the consequences of his very bad kamma.
But if I understand correctly (AN 5.129) the king is trapped in samsara forever with no chance for enlightenment in future lives?
no, but anantarika kamma must ripen in the next life and that only happens with a duration in hell -- the translation i read says one aeon.
so there was no chance he could dilute his evil deeds enough to avoid an aeon in hell, like how angulimala did (he experienced violence in this life instead of hundreds of thousands of years in hell).
you can be sorry and still have to experience the consequences. it might well be that his praiseworthy qualities and his desire to make amends will bring him to some noble attainment in life after next. no one is ever irredeemable. i dont think AN 5.129 is saying such. but its such a thoroughly corrupt and evil thing to do its just not something you can make up for in the same life, and youre of course not going to be capable of attaining stream entry with such an unclear view. the king did desire to kill his father btw, it wasnt an accident. he left him in a cell to starve to death
if he had attained to insight before doing that he wouldnt have killed his father (stream enterers are incapable of killing their parents)
btw if youre interested in this, maha moggallana he recounts his previous life as a māra then falling into hell in MN 50
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
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