Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Post by Ceisiwr »

I've recently began putting in random sutras from the Ekottara Āgama into DeepL just so I can get a rough idea of what is in there. This seems similar to other findings in the EA regarding mindfulness of breathing. It seems the Mahāsāṃghikas had a slightly different method of practice:
I heard the following.

At that time, the Buddha was in the Garden of Solitude at the Gion Tree in the Kingdom of Shiva.

Then the World Honored One said to the bhikkhus, "Practice one Dharma, preach one Dharma, and when you have practiced one Dharma, you will have fame, great rewards, all goodness, the taste of nectar, and the power to attain to the place of no-goodness, to be free of all confusion, to attain the fruit of satsang, and to attain to nirvana. What is the One Dharma? It is called nembutsu.

The Buddha said to the bhikkhus, "What is the practice of nembutsu that leads to fame, great rewards, all good deeds, the taste of nectar, the taste of nothingness, the attainment of magical powers, the elimination of all confused thoughts, the attainment of satsangha, and the attainment of nirvana?

At that time, the bhikkhus said to His Holiness, "The origin of all dharmas is proclaimed by the Buddha. May the World Honored One speak this wonderful meaning to all the bhikkhus, and all the bhikkhus, having heard it from the Buddha, will accept it.

Then the World Honored One said to the bhikkhus, "Listen! Listen! Think about it, and I will explain it widely to you.

The bhikkhus said to him, "Yes. Your Holiness! The bhikkhus came forward and received instruction.

His Holiness said, "If any bhikkhu is sitting with his body and mind upright, cross-legged, with his mind in front of him, without any other thought, and concentrating on the anapana. This is what is meant by anapana. If the breath is long, then also observe that my breath is long; if it is short, then also observe that my breath is short; if it is extremely cold, then also observe that my breath is cold; if it is hot, then also observe that my breath is hot. Observe the body from the head to the feet. If the breath is long or short, you should also observe the length of the breath, and hold the body with your mind to know the length of the breath. If the mind holds the body and knows the length of the breath, it also knows it, and counts the length of the breath and knows it separately. Thus, all bhikkhus! The name is Nembutsu, and then one attains fullness, great rewards, all goodness, the taste of nectar, the place of no-goodness, one attains magical powers, one is free from all distracting thoughts, one attains the fruit of shamatha, and one attains nirvana. Therefore, all bhikkhus! If you think about this and do not leave the anapanic mind, you will attain all these good virtues. Thus, bhikkhus! Do this.

Then the bhikkhus heard the Buddha's words and joyfully followed them.
https://suttacentral.net/ea3.8/lzh/taisho
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pitithefool
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:27 pm
His Holiness said, "If any bhikkhu is sitting with his body and mind upright, cross-legged, with his mind in front of him, without any other thought, and concentrating on the anapana. This is what is meant by anapana. If the breath is long, then also observe that my breath is long; if it is short, then also observe that my breath is short; if it is extremely cold, then also observe that my breath is cold; if it is hot, then also observe that my breath is hot. Observe the body from the head to the feet. If the breath is long or short, you should also observe the length of the breath, and hold the body with your mind to know the length of the breath. If the mind holds the body and knows the length of the breath, it also knows it, and counts the length of the breath and knows it separately. Thus, all bhikkhus! The name is Nembutsu, and then one attains fullness, great rewards, all goodness, the taste of nectar, the place of no-goodness, one attains magical powers, one is free from all distracting thoughts, one attains the fruit of shamatha, and one attains nirvana. Therefore, all bhikkhus! If you think about this and do not leave the anapanic mind, you will attain all these good virtues. Thus, bhikkhus! Do this.

Then the bhikkhus heard the Buddha's words and joyfully followed them.
https://suttacentral.net/ea3.8/lzh/taisho
[/quote]

I'm not too familiar with any of these Agama translations. I have a couple of questions though:

Was this translated from Chinese?

If so was the Chinese translated from Sanskrit?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:37 pm I'm not too familiar with any of these Agama translations. I have a couple of questions though:

Was this translated from Chinese?

If so was the Chinese translated from Sanskrit?
They are texts in traditional Chinese that were taken from India and translated by Chinese monks around 400 C.E. (off the top of my head). The original texts could have been in Sanskrit or Prakrit. Likely Buddhist-Hybrid Sanskrit I think. The translation above is from the Chinese. It’s a text likely belonging to the Mahāsāṃghika, from which very few texts survive today. Doctrinally they were the most distant from Theravāda. Their Buddha is more transcendental and other worldly. For example they believed that the Buddha we know was just a manifestation of the real eternal Buddha, who awakened aeons ago. This is part of where their stupa worship came from. They believed that a part of the eternal Buddha was in the stupa.

Interestingly, some of their sub-schools subscribed to what we would possibly call jhāna-lite today. I say this because they believed that sound could be heard whilst in jhāna. The debate you and I have had have actually been going on for centuries, since the earliest of times.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:42 pm
They are texts in traditional Chinese that were taken from India and translated by Chinese monks around 400 C.E. (off the top of my head). The original texts could have been in Sanskrit or Prakrit. Likely Buddhist-Hybrid Sanskrit I think. The translation above is from the Chinese. It’s a text likely belonging to the Mahāsāṃghika, from which very few texts survive today. Doctrinally they were the most distant from Theravāda. Their Buddha is more transcendental and other worldly. For example, they believed that the Buddha we know was just a manifestation of the real eternal Buddha, who awakened aeons ago. This is part of where their stupa worship came from. They believed that a part of the eternal Buddha was in the stupa.

Interestingly, some of their sub-schools subscribed to what we would possibly call jhāna-lite today. For example, they believed that sound could be heard whilst in jhāna.
This is really interesting but it does sound very much like the start of mahayana-type thinking. I think we also see the same thing happening even in early Theravadin schools in which the Buddha was seen as much more of a divine being, which may be indicative of syncretism between Buddhism and the earlier brahmanical/solar P.I.E. type religion.

Now as far as this sutra goes though, I know very little of the Chinese canon(s). Are there other recensions of similar sutras to this belonging to the various Chinese schools? What I mean is, would the Pure-landers and the Chan Buddhists have been in possession of the same recension and thus this same sutra?

As for the jhana lite debate, I'm interested in learning more from older commentaries on the Chinese canon concerning meditation instruction, assuming there is a commentarial tradition of similar scope to the Theravadins.
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:52 pm ...
They were similar to the Mahayana but these ideas predate it. Not all of the Mahāsāṃghikas even accepted the Mahayana. The Mahāsāṃghika had things in common, but it is a tradition in its own right. Likely Mahayana was influenced by them, to some degree. There are Agamas from other schools, namely Dharmaguptaka (Guardians of the Dharma) and Sarvāstivāda (All exists school). The Dharmaguptaka were closest to Theravada, so we see a lot of overlap between the suttas and Agamas from them there. The Sarvāstivādins were a little further away but closer to Theravada than they were to the Mahāsāṃghika. They believed that dhammas exist in the 3 times. That is to say the past, present and future all exist. They were ontological realists par excellence.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:52 pm
Now as far as this sutra goes though, I know very little of the Chinese canon(s). Are there other recensions of similar sutras to this belonging to the various Chinese schools? What I mean is, would the Pure-landers and the Chan Buddhists have been in possession of the same recension and thus this same sutra?
I believe it’s mostly the Sarvāstivādin texts which underpin most of East Asian Mahayana. They take those as their root texts, as the Hinayana.
As for the jhana lite debate, I'm interested in learning more from older commentaries on the Chinese canon concerning meditation instruction, assuming there is a commentarial tradition of similar scope to the Theravadins.
There is relating to the Abhidharma: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidha ... āṣa_Śāstra

Regarding sutta/sutra commentaries I’m not aware of any stand alone texts. Interestingly though some of the commentary in southern Theravada can be found as being actually part of a sutra in the Agamas. This indicates that the commentaries themselves are quite ancient and early.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:30 pm They were similar to the Mahayana but these ideas predate it. Not all of the Mahāsāṃghikas even accepted the Mahayana. The Mahāsāṃghika had things in common, but it is a tradition in its own right. Likely Mahayana was influenced by them, to some degree.
Very interesting.

I have seen quite a bit of deification in Theravadin text but this also seemed to extend to jhanic attainments as well.

What are we then to think of the Mahasamghikas deifying the Buddha to an even greater degree while at the same time practicing what appears to be a less rigid (lighter) form of meditation?

I'm going to digress a bit to the Jhana lite/vs. heavy debate.

I've stated before, my personal opinion is that there isn't a real difference between the two. I'm pretty convinced that an important definition to be aware of is where vitakka-vicara actually stops, and I'm making the argument that vitakka-vicara is what western psychologists call "controlled processing" which is willed, conscious thought and directed attention. The opposite of this would be automatic processing, which is unconscious, unwilled processing that is a result of practice or habit. That, we might lump into the category of vipassana, which would occur in jhana, regardless of whether we are aware of it or not.

The question here is the is either hard or soft jhana the result of changes in practice over time, changes in teaching methods over time, or changes in interpretation over time?

Here's an interesting thought: What if the early jhana wars is what led to people saying "it's better just to try and follow the path of the Bodhisattva" instead of either entering upon a sea of confusion or into a practice that appears much to difficult? Was it jhana discouragment that (in part at least) led to the Mahayana in the first place?
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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It would be interesting to read the Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra, but it hasn’t been translated yet.
As such an immense text, it contains a huge array of material. This includes the discussion of basically every doctrinal issue of the day, as presented by not only non-Sarvāstivāda views, such as the Vaibhajyavāda, Pudgalavāda, Mahāsāṃghika, and others; but also non-Buddhist systems, such as the Saṃkhya, the Vaiśeṣika, and others; and finally of the Sarvāstivāda itself, as represented by its various learned and venerable leaders.

With regards the former two, their 'unorthodox' and 'incorrect' doctrines are taken to task from the perspective of the Buddhist Sarvāstivāda. With regards the latter, several views are often expressed as more detailed descriptions of Sarvāstivāda doctrines. These are often open ended, with no particular explanation favored over another, though sometimes a particular explanation is extolled as being particularly clear and in harmony with the teachings.

Due to both of the above reasons, the Vibhāṣa literature is particularly useful in not only understanding this school, but in also getting a good perspective on the general state of the Buddha Dharma, and other non-Buddhist religions at the time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidha ... āṣa_Śāstra
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:42 pm
Here's an interesting thought: What if the early jhana wars is what led to people saying "it's better just to try and follow the path of the Bodhisattva" instead of either entering upon a sea of confusion or into a practice that appears much to difficult? Was it jhana discouragment that (in part at least) led to the Mahayana in the first place?
I’ll reply to the rest tomorrow but I suspect what lead to the downgrading of the Arahant and the upgrading of the Bodhisattva was due to certain “Arahants”, possibly quite a few, not behaving as they should. That or new converts having an idealised view of an Arahant and how they would behave, with reality not meeting expectation. I read that some of the initial argument was that the Arahant is still deluded because they don’t know certain facts about the world. This to me is a misunderstanding of what an Arahant is wise to.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:42 pmInterestingly, some of their sub-schools subscribed to what we would possibly call jhāna-lite today.
A few questions: Do we know from which EĀ texts or other texts scholars draw that conclusion? Is there meditation instruction hidden somewhere in the Mahāvastu? Also, which sub-schools? Is this conclusion from the dialogue with the Āndhraka in Kv 18.8 of Kathāvatthu or anything else? I suspect you are citing the Āndhraka in Kv 18.8, but would be eager to read some rare Mahāsāṃghika literature if you have some that I don't.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:42 pmInterestingly, some of their sub-schools subscribed to what we would possibly call jhāna-lite today.
A few questions: Do we know from which EĀ texts or other texts scholars draw that conclusion? Is there meditation instruction hidden somewhere in the Mahāvastu? Also, which sub-schools? Is this conclusion from the dialogue with the Āndhraka in Kv 18.8 of Kathāvatthu or anything else? I suspect you are citing the Āndhraka in Kv 18.8, but would be eager to read some rare Mahāsāṃghika literature if you have some that I don't.
I was referring to the Kathāvatthu, yes. Although the commentary is later, what it tells us is that by the time the commentary was written the Āndhrakas had become associated with such a view. No other early Buddhist school is marked out for proposing what we would call Jhāna-lite today.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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For those who missed it, here's Ven Dhammanando's collection of threads on Jhana
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
and some more comments about the discussions at the Third Council:
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:45 pm Whether or not five-sense-door experience is present in the jhānas is a matter Buddhists have been debating for over two millennia. If Dhamma Wheel's 33-page Great Jhāna Debate thread is anything to go by, they'll probably be debating it for the next two millennia as well. Ajahn Brahm's view that there's no five-sense door experience in even the first jhāna was also the view defended by the Theravadins at the Third Council, while Ajahn Thanissaro's view to the contrary was defended by the Pūrvaśailīyas.

That being so, I don't think there's any need to look to the Sāṃkhya-darśana, or any other non-Buddhist darśana, for the source of Ajahn Brahm's view. Leaving aside the more extreme "jhāna lite" conceptions (e.g. those of Vimalaraṃsi and Leigh Brasington) most modern Buddhist conceptions of jhāna fall well within the spectrum of views that were historically contested among different Buddhist schools.
...
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:02 pm For those who missed it, here's Ven Dhammanando's collection of threads on Jhana
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
and some more comments about the discussions at the Third Council:
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:45 pm Whether or not five-sense-door experience is present in the jhānas is a matter Buddhists have been debating for over two millennia. If Dhamma Wheel's 33-page Great Jhāna Debate thread is anything to go by, they'll probably be debating it for the next two millennia as well. Ajahn Brahm's view that there's no five-sense door experience in even the first jhāna was also the view defended by the Theravadins at the Third Council, while Ajahn Thanissaro's view to the contrary was defended by the Pūrvaśailīyas.

That being so, I don't think there's any need to look to the Sāṃkhya-darśana, or any other non-Buddhist darśana, for the source of Ajahn Brahm's view. Leaving aside the more extreme "jhāna lite" conceptions (e.g. those of Vimalaraṃsi and Leigh Brasington) most modern Buddhist conceptions of jhāna fall well within the spectrum of views that were historically contested among different Buddhist schools.
...
Some good links there. It is worth pointing out that the ancient version of Jhāna-lite seems to have been a rather minority position. That has no truth bearing on the argument of course, but it is interesting. What is clear is that they obviously had access to the same sutta we do, in some form.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

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mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:02 pm For those who missed it, here's Ven Dhammanando's collection of threads on Jhana
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
and some more comments about the discussions at the Third Council:
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:45 pm Whether or not five-sense-door experience is present in the jhānas is a matter Buddhists have been debating for over two millennia. If Dhamma Wheel's 33-page Great Jhāna Debate thread is anything to go by, they'll probably be debating it for the next two millennia as well. Ajahn Brahm's view that there's no five-sense door experience in even the first jhāna was also the view defended by the Theravadins at the Third Council, while Ajahn Thanissaro's view to the contrary was defended by the Pūrvaśailīyas.

That being so, I don't think there's any need to look to the Sāṃkhya-darśana, or any other non-Buddhist darśana, for the source of Ajahn Brahm's view. Leaving aside the more extreme "jhāna lite" conceptions (e.g. those of Vimalaraṃsi and Leigh Brasington) most modern Buddhist conceptions of jhāna fall well within the spectrum of views that were historically contested among different Buddhist schools.
...
The link has gone?
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Mahāsāṃghika Meditation

Post by mikenz66 »

Perhaps it's useful to also quote this part of one of Ven Dhammanando's posts:
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am
nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 amWhat strikes me the most is that it seems to me that no sides acknowledges that both interpretations are actually possibile and have their strenghts and that the matter, and this is very unfortunate because I think everyone wants to know exactly how to practice in the way the Buddha prescribed 2500 years ago, cannot be decided only by sutta references.
As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
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