Ratnakar wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:36 am
Even in patisambhidamagga the arahant said the same thing and even more
in second jhana not only vitakka can "visit" you but the bliss of third jhana can "visit" you too and even nibbana can "visit" you while in second jhana
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is not relevant since we are discussing the suttas only. I thought you only wanted to know what the Buddha said, rather than rely upon later texts?
Yes it can knock a heterosexual, so sound too can knock first jhana meditator out of that attainment ,the "can" is key here, there's no guarantee there but it's possible
Indeed. If the meditator is skilled in not giving rise to intention and attention towards hearing, then there will be no experience of sound.
so What happens first sound entering first jhana or the fall to non jhana ?
What happens first is intention and attention is allowed to arise directed towards hearing. This introduces saññāmanasikārā and the hearing of a sound. As soon as the intention and attention is diversified, it is not jhāna.
Kama can mean sensual desires or sensual pleasures and even sensual objects
But If you mean kama as sensual objects then if you are not deaf ,blind and completely disabled you can't ever enter jhana so it's either sensual desires or sensual pleasures but you said sensual pleasures is vibhanga term then the only possible meaning is sensual desires
The singular kāma cannot be plural by definition. It always means "sensual pleasure" or, perhaps better put, "lust". A deaf and blind person can enter jhāna in the same manner as a healthy person can by not giving rise to intention and attention to their functioning senses. Saying sensual desire instead of sensual pleasure doesn't really change much. A more accurate term IMO for kāma would be "lust". As has been repeatedly shown, the plural of kāma refers to external pretty things in the world.
It's not only about sight or sound sir if you are right if you still feel your heartbeat or your body or your breath you won't enter jhana
Correct, since that is diversified attention.
If you mean not seeing sight or sound,etc is right concentration then the Buddha disagreed with you
“Mendicants, a mendicant who has five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can’t endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion.
A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”
Right concentration is not merely the jhānā. It is the jhānā in conjunction with the other factors of awakening. The jhānā themselves, however, are states devoid of the 5 senses. What your sutta is referring to here is an inability to prevent intention and attention from arising as the senses. If a meditator can't endure some pain, then they will not be able to enter any of the jhānā since they are not skilled in preventing intention and attention from arising in relation to tactile sensations.
So in 5 aggregates which is physical body which is mental body ?
In term of the 5 aggregates vedanā, sañña and formations would belong to the nāmakāya. Consciousness is under it's own category, whilst the form aggregate refers to the image (rūpa) of the physical body (sarīra) at contact.
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual desires instead of completely secluded from sensual desires/lust/passion/sensual pleasures
You merely assert that kāmā means sensual pleasures because English translations, usually based themselves on the Vibhaṅga, state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures, therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translation state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures...
Your reasoning is circular. When you have attempted to justify it, the sutta turns out to be saying something quite the opposite. The standard pericope is "secluded from sensual objects", the "pretty things" in the world. As in, secluded from sights, sounds, touches etc.
So do you mean due to no body contact no feeling arise thus no sensual craving then arise ?
Buddha rejected this saying blind people don't have craving doesn't mean his faculties is developed it's only when he sees but no feeling arise or he sees and feeling arise but no craving arise then truly his sense faculties developed
No. There is vedanā in the jhānā. These are spiritual:
“And what, bhikkhus, is spiritual rapture? Here, secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is called spiritual rapture.
However, whilst in jhānā the underlying tendency of greed does not underlie the spiritual vedanā therein, as per MN 44:
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unskilful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.
A blind person who does not know jhāna would be experiencing vedanā, with the underlying tendencies underneath them.
You seem to think that only when contact cease feeling cease and only when feeling cease lust/craving cease ,buddha said that craving can still be stilled even when feeling arise furthermore in cessation attainment you don't have feeling at all but you still have contact
When there is no contact there is no vedanā however the underlying tendencies can remain. I'm not aware of any sutta that discusses contact in relation to nirodha-samāpatti?
kamehi is still unskillful mental qualities because buddha directly refer to desires and aversions as unskillful mental qualities then it's quite secluded from unskillful mental qualities or it's quite secluded from desires and aversions
Not that you have shown. You merely assert that kāmehi means "unskilful qualities". When we look to the suttas, it is clear that they are external things:
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a persons lust
Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Not the kāmā which are pretty in the world
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a person’s lust
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke;
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandanti.
but a wise one removes desire for them.
But buddha said secluded from craving/lust/desires can happen even there is still feeling even there is still contact otherwise you need to explain how monks and lays still have feeling yet Don't have craving/lust
The only way to have vedanā without lust in ordinary sense experience is for the underlying tendency to have been removed. The only person who has completely removed all of them today are Arahants.
buddha said lay people can even attain non returner fruit
And Remember that even stream entry requires ordinary lay people to abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual cravings obviously ordinary people still have feeling if they have feeling that means they still have contact from 6 senses bases and they may not even attain first jhana but they already abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual desire/lust
A sotāpanna still has the fetter of lust (kāma). The underlying tendencies still underlie their worldly vedanā. What the sotāpanna has abandoned is identity view, doubt and belief that virtuous behaviour is sufficient for freedom from dukkha.
Or do you argue that even a stream entry need jhana ?
I'm on the fence with this one.
So sensual desire is what the buddha considered as unskillful qualities
Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption
Kāma is one unskilful quality among many.
Yes 5 aggregates is mara and any desire for 5 aggregates is mara too, unless you are blind buddha said desire for mara is mara ,he even repeated it twice ,or do you argue buddha need to repeat it more stressing it ?
The sutta you quoted states that the 5 aggregates are Māra whilst the desire is distinct. In that sutta desire is not defined as Māra. It states that desire should be given up since it brings you to Māra, i.e. the aggregates.
So do you mean by sense restraint buddha meaned no Sense-objects/no body-contacts ?
No. When one is practicing perfecting virtue and sense restraint there is still experience of the 5 senses. What is being trained is not giving rise to intentions towards them. Without this foundation the jhānā are impossible, since you need to be able to prevent intention and attention from arising at the 5 senses for them to occur. This is why without virtue and sense-restraint no one can achieve any jhānā. At a minimum it requires adhering to at least the 8 precepts.