Jhana and the early Mahayana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:42 pm

It means not giving rise to intention and attention towards them. Intention and attention are required for sense contact to occur, as per MN 28. This is why virtue and renunciation are necessary pre-requisites. A mind that can’t keep virtue and sense restraint can never enter jhāna for such a mind is always intending towards the 5 senses.
YES!!!!!
So you agree now then that whilst in a jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses? This would be great news.
No no no.

Guarding the senses is important.

Seclusion from sesuality (kamehi) means not becoming infatuated and following them.

If someone sits down to meditate and centers the mind on the breath, that's good.

Not being secluded from sensuality would mean stopping meditating and instead playing with the sand, looking at the pretty trees, smelling mamma's homecooked apple pie, et cetera. In short, engaging in becoming in the sense realm.

Seclusion means you are turning inward to the realm of of the mind rather than the senses and that means looking at and taking control of the conditioning factors of vitakka-vicara, feeling, perception, and anapana.

Furthermore, we have to have right sati to do this, which mean body, feelings, mind and dhammas. How is suppressing contact going to help us to do that?
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:44 pm

YES!!!!!
So you agree now then that whilst in a jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses? This would be great news.
No no no.

Guarding the senses is important.

Seclusion from sesuality (kamehi) means not becoming infatuated and following them.

If someone sits down to meditate and centers the mind on the breath, that's good.

Not being secluded from sensuality would mean stopping meditating and instead playing with the sand, looking at the pretty trees, smelling mamma's homecooked apple pie, et cetera. In short, engaging in becoming in the sense realm.

Seclusion means you are turning inward to the realm of of the mind rather than the senses and that means looking at and taking control of the conditioning factors of vitakka-vicara, feeling, perception, and anapana.

Furthermore, we have to have right sati to do this, which mean body, feelings, mind and dhammas. How is suppressing contact going to help us to do that?
By definition, according to MN 28, when there is no attention towards the 5 senses then there is no sensory contact and so no experience of them.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 pm ...
Hilarious profile picture btw.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:40 pm
Hilarious profile picture btw.
Thanks lol :D

MN 28 though does not mention jhana at all. The way the part I think you're referring to is worded states that if sounds do not come into range and there is not a corresponding engagement. What if sounds come into range though? According to this sutta, the arising of the corresponding consciousness is not completely ruled out. Unless the translation is incorrect?

Like I said before, I'm not really arguing that the absorbed model is wrong. Rather I think the sutta-jhana model is more in line with what's espoused in the sutta pitaka.

Either way. I'm tired, I'm fed up with debating. I consider you a dear friend, Ceisiwr and I don't wish to continue this. You're a very kind person and it should be known that talking with you is a benefit for everyone. I think I may be taking a break from this website for a little while (we'll see how long that lasts). I've learned what I set out to learn and I think it's time to focus more on my practice now. I wish you the best :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Ratnakar
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

Deleted to fix space, grammar and quotes
Last edited by Ratnakar on Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:36 am, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:33 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm

So you agree now then that whilst in a jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses? This would be great news.
No no no.

Guarding the senses is important.

Seclusion from sesuality (kamehi) means not becoming infatuated and following them.

If someone sits down to meditate and centers the mind on the breath, that's good.

Not being secluded from sensuality would mean stopping meditating and instead playing with the sand, looking at the pretty trees, smelling mamma's homecooked apple pie, et cetera. In short, engaging in becoming in the sense realm.

Seclusion means you are turning inward to the realm of of the mind rather than the senses and that means looking at and taking control of the conditioning factors of vitakka-vicara, feeling, perception, and anapana.

Furthermore, we have to have right sati to do this, which mean body, feelings, mind and dhammas. How is suppressing contact going to help us to do that?
By definition, according to MN 28, when there is no attention towards the 5 senses then there is no sensory contact and so no experience of them.
Please quote it or do you want me to quote it for you eh ?
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:49 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:44 pm

YES!!!!!
So you agree now then that whilst in a jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses? This would be great news.
No no no.

Guarding the senses is important.

Seclusion from sesuality (kamehi) means not becoming infatuated and following them.

If someone sits down to meditate and centers the mind on the breath, that's good.

Not being secluded from sensuality would mean stopping meditating and instead playing with the sand, looking at the pretty trees, smelling mamma's homecooked apple pie, et cetera. In short, engaging in becoming in the sense realm.

Seclusion means you are turning inward to the realm of of the mind rather than the senses and that means looking at and taking control of the conditioning factors of vitakka-vicara, feeling, perception, and anapana.

Furthermore, we have to have right sati to do this, which mean body, feelings, mind and dhammas. How is suppressing contact going to help us to do that?
Actually he is quite right for example if you play soundless game during class I don't think you will clearly hear what your teacher said let alone understanding it but if you focus on your teacher's voice using vitakka you will no doubt understand it let alone hearing it

But if your teacher's voice is loud enough you still will hear it while playing the game although only in background
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm The text says nothing of the sort. The definition of being in the 2nd jhāna is the absence of vitakka-vicāra. It is repeated over and over again. Logically it follows that if vitakka-vicāra is happening, yet one is still in meditation, then there is a falling back.
Even in patisambhidamagga the arahant said the same thing and even more
in second jhana not only vitakka can "visit" you but the bliss of third jhana can "visit" you too and even nibbana can "visit" you while in second jhana
Patisambhidamagga 1.128
When perception and attention accompanied by sensual-desire visit
an obtainer of the first jhana, that is an idea partaking of diminution.
When mindfulness in conformity with that [jhana] becomes stabilized,
that is an idea partaking of stagnation. When perception and attention
unaccompanied by applied-thought visit him, that is an idea partaking of
distinction. When perception and attention accompanied by dispassion
and allied to fading away of greed visit him, that is an idea partaking
of penetration.

When perception and attention accompanied by applied-thought visit
an obtainer of the second jhana, that is an idea partaking of diminution.
When mindfulness in conformity with that [jhana] becomes stabilized,
that is an idea partaking of stagnation. When perception and attention
accompanied by equanimity and [bodily] pleasure visit him, that is an
idea partaking of distinction. When perception and attention accompanied by dispassion and allied to fading away of greed visit him, that is an idea
partaking of penetration.
Patisambhidamagga 1.128
Paṭhamassa jhānassa lābhiṁ kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti— hānabhāgiyo dhammo. Tadanudhammatā sati santiṭṭhati— ṭhitibhāgiyo dhammo. Avitakkasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti—visesabhāgiyo dhammo. Nibbidāsahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti virāgūpasaṁhitā— nibbedhabhāgiyo dhammo.

Dutiyassa jhānassa lābhiṁ vitakkasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti— hānabhāgiyo dhammo. Tadanudhammatā sati santiṭṭhati— ṭhitibhāgiyo dhammo. Upekkhāsukhasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti visesabhāgiyo dhammo. Nibbidāsahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti virāgūpasaṁhitā— nibbedhabhāgiyo dhammo.
from other sutta references, the imperturbable samadhi refers to 4th jhana or formless attainments. so the important point to take away here is even with an imperturbable samadhi being impure, the buddha only said it was impure, not that it doesn’t qualify as being called imperturbable, just as in the SN 40 moggallana (first 8 suttas) is practicing impure versions of the the 4 jhanas and formless attainments
vinaya pitaka parajika 4
"Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna addressed the monks: “Friends, after attaining an imperturbable samādhi on the banks of the river Sappinikā,I heard the noise of elephants plunging in, emerging and trumpeting.”

The monks criticised and denounced him: “How can Venerable Mahāmoggallāna say such a thing. He is claiming a super-human achievement.” They informed the Master.

“Monks, there is such a samādhi, but it is not wholly purified. Moggallāna spoke truly. There is no offence for Moggallāna.”
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Whilst in the 1st jhāna hearing a sound will knock you off balance, just like how seeing a beautiful woman can knock a heterosexual man off balance in terms of sense restraint
Yes it can knock a heterosexual, so sound too can knock first jhana meditator out of that attainment ,the "can" is key here, there's no guarantee there but it's possible
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm If whilst in jhāna the meditator slips and intention and attention is given to hearing a sound, then they will fall away from that state. Sound is a thorn to it, like pain is a thorn to happiness.
so What happens first sound entering first jhana or the fall to non jhana ?
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm No, but you rely heavily on English translations which are based on the Abhidhamma definition of kāmā. Based on the suttas alone, the kāmā are external objects not "sensual pleasures"


Kama can mean sensual desires or sensual pleasures and even sensual objects
But If you mean kama as sensual objects then if you are not deaf ,blind and completely disabled you can't ever enter jhana so it's either sensual desires or sensual pleasures but you said sensual pleasures is vibhanga term then the only possible meaning is sensual desires
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm The mind is quite secluded from the external sights, sounds etc. From the kāmā,
It's not only about sight or sound sir if you are right if you still feel your heartbeat or your body or your breath you won't enter jhana
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm The pleasure and happiness arises dependent upon the external sense objects:

Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.

We can shorten to:

Any external sensual objects there are, the arising of pleasure and happiness dependent upon them is the enjoyment of them.

This is a standard teaching of contact giving rise to vedanā, which then follows to lust due to the underlying tendencies. When I see an alluring man (a kāmā) the underlying tendencies will be activated, in turn giving rise to pleasure and happiness. This is the enjoyment of the kāmā. Being fully secluded from the kāmā means not being able to see the attractive man walking by. The underlying tendencies are temporarily denied the chance to blossom, and so lust and pleasure do not arise.


If you mean not seeing sight or sound,etc is right concentration then the Buddha disagreed with you
An 5.113
“Mendicants, a mendicant who has five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can’t endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion.

A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Consciousness is not part of the nāmakāya. This is a later Abhidhamma idea. For someone who wants to only rely on the suttas you sure do gulp down whole gallons of the Abhidhamma. Its surprising how many of the "sutta only" types unconsciously end up doing that. As for sañña it means more along the lines of "conceptualisation" than "perception", but that is a different topic.
So in 5 aggregates which is physical body which is mental body ?
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Not even the Abhidhamma, which you are still yet to justify, defines the plural kāmā in the singular. This would be quite grammatically incorrect. According to the suttas, it is seclusion from the pretty things in the world (kāmā).
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual desires instead of completely secluded from sensual desires/lust/passion/sensual pleasures

English is not my mother tongue regardless they are all nearly identical
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm You are secluded from lust and unwholesome states because the underlying tendencies are no longer being activated by ignorance-based contact with the kāmā.
So do you mean due to no body contact no feeling arise thus no sensual craving then arise ?
Buddha rejected this saying blind people don't have craving doesn't mean his faculties is developed it's only when he sees but no feeling arise or he sees and feeling arise but no craving arise then truly his sense faculties developed

You seem to think that only when contact cease feeling cease and only when feeling cease lust/craving cease ,buddha said that craving can still be stilled even when feeling arise furthermore in cessation attainment you don't have feeling at all but you still have contact
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Once again, the suttas define kāmā as pretty things in the world. The Abhidhamma defines them as "sensual pleasures". Quoting English translations based on the Abhidhamma doesn't prove your point. It merely begs the question. It is circular reasoning, which is a logical fallacy. They seem popular on this page again


It's bhante sujato translation so bhante sujato may be incorrect

kamehi is still unskillful mental qualities because buddha directly refer to desires and aversions as unskillful mental qualities then it's quite secluded from unskillful mental qualities or it's quite secluded from desires and aversions

Notice that it's quite secluded not completely secluded so you can still have 1 or 2 unskillful qualities yet still to enter jhana

Of course you can translate it as secluded from sense objects since if there's no contact there will be no lust/craving sir

But buddha said secluded from craving/lust/desires can happen even there is still feeling even there is still contact otherwise you need to explain how monks and lays still have feeling yet Don't have craving/lust

buddha said lay people can even attain non returner fruit

And Remember that even stream entry requires ordinary lay people to abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual cravings obviously ordinary people still have feeling if they have feeling that means they still have contact from 6 senses bases and they may not even attain first jhana but they already abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual desire/lust

Or do you argue that even a stream entry need jhana ?
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm
So sensual desires is what buddha considered as unskillful qualities
Kāma is, not the kāmā (plural).
So sensual desire is what the buddha considered as unskillful qualities
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm Once again I'm dumbstruck as to why people quote suttas that actually go against their position. The sutta here clearly makes a distinction between desire/greed and Māra. In fact, the sutta goes on to define Māra as the 5 aggregates rather than desire:
Let's quote it fully
Sn23.35
Rādha, you should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra. And what is Māra? Form is Māra. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for it. …

Consciousness is Māra. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for it. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra.”
Yes 5 aggregates is mara and any desire for 5 aggregates is mara too, unless you are blind buddha said desire for mara is mara ,he even repeated it twice ,or do you argue buddha need to repeat it more stressing it ?
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm If there is intention and attention towards the senses then there is contact at vision, hearing and so on. If there is no intention and attention and no lust towards the 5 senses then there is no experience of the 5 senses as per MN 28. This is why renunciation is important and why no one can attain any jhāna without a firm foundation of sīla. You have to train the mind to turn away from the 5 senses, from indulging in sensual objects, as this turning away from sense experience is essential for any jhāna. If you cannot practice sense restraint then you cannot obtain the jhānā.
So do you mean by sense restraint buddha meaned no Sense-objects/no body-contacts ?

If that's the case Buddha disagreed with you
An4.14
And what, mendicants, is the effort to restrain? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming
If something is not clear please tell me so I can bold it
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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pitithefool wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:10 am
MN 28 though does not mention jhana at all. The way the part I think you're referring to is worded states that if sounds do not come into range and there is not a corresponding engagement. What if sounds come into range though? According to this sutta, the arising of the corresponding consciousness is not completely ruled out. Unless the translation is incorrect?
It does not mention the jhānā no, but it is highly relevant. The section I had in mind was this:

"If internally the eye is intact and external forms come into its range, but there is no corresponding conscious engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness."

What is being translated here as "conscious engagement" is "samannāhāro", which means "attention" or "concentration". So, the sutta is saying that sensory contact and experience of say a tree requires attention 1st, rather than it occurring due to the tree merely coming into one's visual field. From this it follows that if there is no intention and attention towards seeing then there is no experience of visual forms even if they come into range. The same for the other senses.

"If internally the ear is intact and external sounds come into its range, but there is no corresponding conscious engagement, then there is no manifestation of the corresponding section of consciousness."

In other words, one will not hear a sound even if sat in the middle of a noisy forest. If, however, one gives rise to intention and attention towards hearing then there will be the experience of sound. From all of this then we can gather that if one is not giving rise to intention and attention towards the 5 senses then they will not be experienced. One will be in the 1st jhāna.
Like I said before, I'm not really arguing that the absorbed model is wrong. Rather I think the sutta-jhana model is more in line with what's espoused in the sutta pitaka.
Well, as I have shown an absorbed model is in line with the suttas.
Either way. I'm tired, I'm fed up with debating. I consider you a dear friend, Ceisiwr and I don't wish to continue this. You're a very kind person and it should be known that talking with you is a benefit for everyone. I think I may be taking a break from this website for a little while (we'll see how long that lasts). I've learned what I set out to learn and I think it's time to focus more on my practice now. I wish you the best :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
All the best. Do visit again in the future. It's been nice debating with you.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:36 am
Even in patisambhidamagga the arahant said the same thing and even more
in second jhana not only vitakka can "visit" you but the bliss of third jhana can "visit" you too and even nibbana can "visit" you while in second jhana
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is not relevant since we are discussing the suttas only. I thought you only wanted to know what the Buddha said, rather than rely upon later texts?
Yes it can knock a heterosexual, so sound too can knock first jhana meditator out of that attainment ,the "can" is key here, there's no guarantee there but it's possible
Indeed. If the meditator is skilled in not giving rise to intention and attention towards hearing, then there will be no experience of sound.
so What happens first sound entering first jhana or the fall to non jhana ?
What happens first is intention and attention is allowed to arise directed towards hearing. This introduces saññāmanasikārā and the hearing of a sound. As soon as the intention and attention is diversified, it is not jhāna.
Kama can mean sensual desires or sensual pleasures and even sensual objects
But If you mean kama as sensual objects then if you are not deaf ,blind and completely disabled you can't ever enter jhana so it's either sensual desires or sensual pleasures but you said sensual pleasures is vibhanga term then the only possible meaning is sensual desires
The singular kāma cannot be plural by definition. It always means "sensual pleasure" or, perhaps better put, "lust". A deaf and blind person can enter jhāna in the same manner as a healthy person can by not giving rise to intention and attention to their functioning senses. Saying sensual desire instead of sensual pleasure doesn't really change much. A more accurate term IMO for kāma would be "lust". As has been repeatedly shown, the plural of kāma refers to external pretty things in the world.
It's not only about sight or sound sir if you are right if you still feel your heartbeat or your body or your breath you won't enter jhana
Correct, since that is diversified attention.
If you mean not seeing sight or sound,etc is right concentration then the Buddha disagreed with you

“Mendicants, a mendicant who has five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can’t endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion.

A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”
Right concentration is not merely the jhānā. It is the jhānā in conjunction with the other factors of awakening. The jhānā themselves, however, are states devoid of the 5 senses. What your sutta is referring to here is an inability to prevent intention and attention from arising as the senses. If a meditator can't endure some pain, then they will not be able to enter any of the jhānā since they are not skilled in preventing intention and attention from arising in relation to tactile sensations.
So in 5 aggregates which is physical body which is mental body ?
In term of the 5 aggregates vedanā, sañña and formations would belong to the nāmakāya. Consciousness is under it's own category, whilst the form aggregate refers to the image (rūpa) of the physical body (sarīra) at contact.
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual desires instead of completely secluded from sensual desires/lust/passion/sensual pleasures
You merely assert that kāmā means sensual pleasures because English translations, usually based themselves on the Vibhaṅga, state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures, therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translation state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures...

Your reasoning is circular. When you have attempted to justify it, the sutta turns out to be saying something quite the opposite. The standard pericope is "secluded from sensual objects", the "pretty things" in the world. As in, secluded from sights, sounds, touches etc.
So do you mean due to no body contact no feeling arise thus no sensual craving then arise ?
Buddha rejected this saying blind people don't have craving doesn't mean his faculties is developed it's only when he sees but no feeling arise or he sees and feeling arise but no craving arise then truly his sense faculties developed
No. There is vedanā in the jhānā. These are spiritual:
“And what, bhikkhus, is spiritual rapture? Here, secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is called spiritual rapture.
However, whilst in jhānā the underlying tendency of greed does not underlie the spiritual vedanā therein, as per MN 44:
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unskilful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.
A blind person who does not know jhāna would be experiencing vedanā, with the underlying tendencies underneath them.
You seem to think that only when contact cease feeling cease and only when feeling cease lust/craving cease ,buddha said that craving can still be stilled even when feeling arise furthermore in cessation attainment you don't have feeling at all but you still have contact
When there is no contact there is no vedanā however the underlying tendencies can remain. I'm not aware of any sutta that discusses contact in relation to nirodha-samāpatti?
kamehi is still unskillful mental qualities because buddha directly refer to desires and aversions as unskillful mental qualities then it's quite secluded from unskillful mental qualities or it's quite secluded from desires and aversions
Not that you have shown. You merely assert that kāmehi means "unskilful qualities". When we look to the suttas, it is clear that they are external things:

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a persons lust

Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Not the kāmā which are pretty in the world

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a person’s lust

Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke;
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,

Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandanti.
but a wise one removes desire for them.

But buddha said secluded from craving/lust/desires can happen even there is still feeling even there is still contact otherwise you need to explain how monks and lays still have feeling yet Don't have craving/lust
The only way to have vedanā without lust in ordinary sense experience is for the underlying tendency to have been removed. The only person who has completely removed all of them today are Arahants.
buddha said lay people can even attain non returner fruit

And Remember that even stream entry requires ordinary lay people to abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual cravings obviously ordinary people still have feeling if they have feeling that means they still have contact from 6 senses bases and they may not even attain first jhana but they already abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual desire/lust
A sotāpanna still has the fetter of lust (kāma). The underlying tendencies still underlie their worldly vedanā. What the sotāpanna has abandoned is identity view, doubt and belief that virtuous behaviour is sufficient for freedom from dukkha.
Or do you argue that even a stream entry need jhana ?
I'm on the fence with this one.
So sensual desire is what the buddha considered as unskillful qualities

An 6.73
Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption
Kāma is one unskilful quality among many.
Yes 5 aggregates is mara and any desire for 5 aggregates is mara too, unless you are blind buddha said desire for mara is mara ,he even repeated it twice ,or do you argue buddha need to repeat it more stressing it ?
The sutta you quoted states that the 5 aggregates are Māra whilst the desire is distinct. In that sutta desire is not defined as Māra. It states that desire should be given up since it brings you to Māra, i.e. the aggregates.
So do you mean by sense restraint buddha meaned no Sense-objects/no body-contacts ?
No. When one is practicing perfecting virtue and sense restraint there is still experience of the 5 senses. What is being trained is not giving rise to intentions towards them. Without this foundation the jhānā are impossible, since you need to be able to prevent intention and attention from arising at the 5 senses for them to occur. This is why without virtue and sense-restraint no one can achieve any jhānā. At a minimum it requires adhering to at least the 8 precepts.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
Ratnakar
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:30 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:36 am
Even in patisambhidamagga the arahant said the same thing and even more
in second jhana not only vitakka can "visit" you but the bliss of third jhana can "visit" you too and even nibbana can "visit" you while in second jhana
The Paṭisambhidāmagga is not relevant since we are discussing the suttas only. I thought you only wanted to know what the Buddha said, rather than rely upon later texts?
Yes it can knock a heterosexual, so sound too can knock first jhana meditator out of that attainment ,the "can" is key here, there's no guarantee there but it's possible
Indeed. If the meditator is skilled in not giving rise to intention and attention towards hearing, then there will be no experience of sound.
so What happens first sound entering first jhana or the fall to non jhana ?
What happens first is intention and attention is allowed to arise directed towards hearing. This introduces saññāmanasikārā and the hearing of a sound. As soon as the intention and attention is diversified, it is not jhāna.
Kama can mean sensual desires or sensual pleasures and even sensual objects
But If you mean kama as sensual objects then if you are not deaf ,blind and completely disabled you can't ever enter jhana so it's either sensual desires or sensual pleasures but you said sensual pleasures is vibhanga term then the only possible meaning is sensual desires
The singular kāma cannot be plural by definition. It always means "sensual pleasure" or, perhaps better put, "lust". A deaf and blind person can enter jhāna in the same manner as a healthy person can by not giving rise to intention and attention to their functioning senses. Saying sensual desire instead of sensual pleasure doesn't really change much. A more accurate term IMO for kāma would be "lust". As has been repeatedly shown, the plural of kāma refers to external pretty things in the world.
It's not only about sight or sound sir if you are right if you still feel your heartbeat or your body or your breath you won't enter jhana
Correct, since that is diversified attention.
If you mean not seeing sight or sound,etc is right concentration then the Buddha disagreed with you

“Mendicants, a mendicant who has five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can’t endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion.

A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”
Right concentration is not merely the jhānā. It is the jhānā in conjunction with the other factors of awakening. The jhānā themselves, however, are states devoid of the 5 senses. What your sutta is referring to here is an inability to prevent intention and attention from arising as the senses. If a meditator can't endure some pain, then they will not be able to enter any of the jhānā since they are not skilled in preventing intention and attention from arising in relation to tactile sensations.
So in 5 aggregates which is physical body which is mental body ?
In term of the 5 aggregates vedanā, sañña and formations would belong to the nāmakāya. Consciousness is under it's own category, whilst the form aggregate refers to the image (rūpa) of the physical body (sarīra) at contact.
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual desires instead of completely secluded from sensual desires/lust/passion/sensual pleasures
You merely assert that kāmā means sensual pleasures because English translations, usually based themselves on the Vibhaṅga, state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures, therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translation state sensual pleasures therefore it means sensual pleasures because English translations state sensual pleasures...

Your reasoning is circular. When you have attempted to justify it, the sutta turns out to be saying something quite the opposite. The standard pericope is "secluded from sensual objects", the "pretty things" in the world. As in, secluded from sights, sounds, touches etc.
So do you mean due to no body contact no feeling arise thus no sensual craving then arise ?
Buddha rejected this saying blind people don't have craving doesn't mean his faculties is developed it's only when he sees but no feeling arise or he sees and feeling arise but no craving arise then truly his sense faculties developed
No. There is vedanā in the jhānā. These are spiritual:
“And what, bhikkhus, is spiritual rapture? Here, secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhana, which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhana, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, is without thought and examination, and has rapture and happiness born of concentration. This is called spiritual rapture.
However, whilst in jhānā the underlying tendency of greed does not underlie the spiritual vedanā therein, as per MN 44:
Take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual objects, secluded from unskilful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. With this they give up greed, and the underlying tendency to greed does not lie within that.
A blind person who does not know jhāna would be experiencing vedanā, with the underlying tendencies underneath them.
You seem to think that only when contact cease feeling cease and only when feeling cease lust/craving cease ,buddha said that craving can still be stilled even when feeling arise furthermore in cessation attainment you don't have feeling at all but you still have contact
When there is no contact there is no vedanā however the underlying tendencies can remain. I'm not aware of any sutta that discusses contact in relation to nirodha-samāpatti?
kamehi is still unskillful mental qualities because buddha directly refer to desires and aversions as unskillful mental qualities then it's quite secluded from unskillful mental qualities or it's quite secluded from desires and aversions
Not that you have shown. You merely assert that kāmehi means "unskilful qualities". When we look to the suttas, it is clear that they are external things:

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a persons lust

Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Not the kāmā which are pretty in the world

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo,
Greedy intention is a person’s lust

Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke;
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,

Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandanti.
but a wise one removes desire for them.

But buddha said secluded from craving/lust/desires can happen even there is still feeling even there is still contact otherwise you need to explain how monks and lays still have feeling yet Don't have craving/lust
The only way to have vedanā without lust in ordinary sense experience is for the underlying tendency to have been removed. The only person who has completely removed all of them today are Arahants.
buddha said lay people can even attain non returner fruit

And Remember that even stream entry requires ordinary lay people to abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual cravings obviously ordinary people still have feeling if they have feeling that means they still have contact from 6 senses bases and they may not even attain first jhana but they already abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual desire/lust
A sotāpanna still has the fetter of lust (kāma). The underlying tendencies still underlie their worldly vedanā. What the sotāpanna has abandoned is identity view, doubt and belief that virtuous behaviour is sufficient for freedom from dukkha.
Or do you argue that even a stream entry need jhana ?
I'm on the fence with this one.
So sensual desire is what the buddha considered as unskillful qualities

An 6.73
Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption
Kāma is one unskilful quality among many.
Yes 5 aggregates is mara and any desire for 5 aggregates is mara too, unless you are blind buddha said desire for mara is mara ,he even repeated it twice ,or do you argue buddha need to repeat it more stressing it ?
The sutta you quoted states that the 5 aggregates are Māra whilst the desire is distinct. In that sutta desire is not defined as Māra. It states that desire should be given up since it brings you to Māra, i.e. the aggregates.
So do you mean by sense restraint buddha meaned no Sense-objects/no body-contacts ?
No. When one is practicing perfecting virtue and sense restraint there is still experience of the 5 senses. What is being trained is not giving rise to intentions towards them. Without this foundation the jhānā are impossible, since you need to be able to prevent intention and attention from arising at the 5 senses for them to occur. This is why without virtue and sense-restraint no one can achieve any jhānā. At a minimum it requires adhering to at least the 8 precepts.
Yes I think you are right
But I will research more suttas and patisambhidamagga to confirm this
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ratnakar wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:42 pm
Yes I think you are right
But I will research more suttas and patisambhidamagga to confirm this
Of course. That is a wise thing to do. Always remember though that the suttas take precedent over any other text. Thank you for the good discussion. Until next time.

:anjali:
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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auto
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:05 pm It clearly states that they are things in the world:

Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke;
Not the kāmā which are pretty in the world

Unless you are an Idealist, the kāmā are external objects.
yo, you rigged the translation, are you so confident that you are right?
the Sutta says
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato wrote: There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
..
However, these are not sensual pleasures. In the training of the Noble One they’re called ‘kinds of sensual stimulation’.
Api ca kho, bhikkhave, nete kāmā kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti
Sutta says in the training of the Noble Ones they are called 'kinds of sensual stimulation'. - kāmaguṇā
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato wrote: The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke
it says that the sights, sounds.. are not by themselves agreeable, arousing, likeable.. but instead it is greedy intension what is persons sensual pleasure.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:36 pm
yo, you rigged the translation
I did not such thing.
are you so confident that you are right?
Yes.
There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
..
However, these are not sensual pleasures. In the training of the Noble One they’re called ‘kinds of sensual stimulation’.
Api ca kho, bhikkhave, nete kāmā kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti
Sutta says in the training of the Noble Ones they are called 'kinds of sensual stimulation'. - kāmaguṇā
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato wrote:
The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
Nete kāmā yāni citrāni loke
it says that the sights, sounds.. are not by themselves agreeable, arousing, likeable.. but instead it is greedy intension what is persons sensual desire.
The sutta itself has obviously suffered from either corruption or editing. Taking the verse with the prose and sticking to just "sensual pleasures" or "sensual objects" you get a confused message. I tend to follow Ven. Anālayo, where he points out that in many instances where we have verse and prose the verse tends to be the most ancient and the prose more of a commentary on it. For further reading in this regard I can refer you to: Seidenstücker 1913: 87, Seidenstücker 1920: xvi, Winternitz 1920/1968: 67, Woodward 1935: v, Pande 1957: 72, Lamotte 1968: 465, Nakamura 1980/1999: 43, Norman 1983: 61, Abeynayake 1984: 66, Ireland 1990: 7, von Hinüber 1996/1997: 46 and Anālayo 2009a. (pg 392, Madhyama Agama Studies).

With this in mind, we can then view the prose section as either being corrupted in transmission or, perhaps more likely, a creeping of the Vibhaṅga definition of kāma into the text. There are other suttas which show Abhidhamma influence, such as MN 111, whilst the verse here is found elsewhere separate from the prose. To conclude, the most ancient part of the text thus refers to kāmā as being external sense objects rather than "sensual pleasures".
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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auto
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:47 pm ..
It isn't confused to me, you are trying to write off dhammavicaya - making difference between unwholesome and wholesome.
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