Jhana and the early Mahayana

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

They way I've heard it explained, the colour and space kasinas are visual, and the bell, dharani, and sūtra kasinas are auditory, and the breath is a tactile kasina that can lead no higher than entrance into the fourth, and the mind kasina is mental in nature and leads all the way to immediately before nirodhasamapatti. It would be interesting if I could actually substantiate that in a text, because this is from personal instruction with Ven Innen (not the historical one obviously) at the former Red Maple Samgha in Perth, Ontario.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:34 pm They way I've heard it explained, the colour and space kasinas are visual, and the bell, dharani, and sūtra kasinas are auditory, and the breath is a tactile kasina that can lead no higher than entrance into the fourth, and the mind krtsna is mental in nature and leads all the way to immediately before nirodhasamapatti. It would be interesting if I could actually substantiate that in a text, because this is from personal instruction with Ven Innen (not the historical one obviously) at the former Red Maple Samgha in Perth, Ontario.
I still don't understand how if one has the 1st jhāna via the colour kasiṇa they can also experience the 5 senses?
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't know if a dhyānin using an auditory kasina can see or if one using a visual one can hear. I'm not a dhyānin. I'll have to look up and see if I can find a technical answer from Ven Vasubandhu, who states that visual and auditory and tactile consciousnesses are in operation in the first dhyāna in the uploaded images above, and also message Ven Innen and see if he can get back to me.

Ven Zhiyi has some meditations that will only scandalize, having multiple points of perception that must be maintained such as in the "Constantly Walking Amitāyur Samādhi." Obviously I won't be citing those as "early" Mahayana necessarily.

That whole debate between the Darstantikas & Vaibhasikas is also directly related to this.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Coëmgenu »

I hope you don't mind if I migrate a post of yours from the "Samatha Bhavana" forum from the thread called "Can We Hear Sound in Jhana?"
pitithefool wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:43 pmYou see, the reason this model makes sense is because shutting out the senses doesn't accomplish anything, rather it seems more to be an expression of craving for non-existing, craving for non-contact.
Are you familiar with the idea that one uses craving to destroy craving, views to destroy views? Contact is actually duhkha. From the text I've been citing above:
[...] the yogin pursues his reflections and asks himself why beings are attached to this body. It is because of pleasant feeling. How? From the meeting between the six internal organs and the six outer objects the six kinds of consciousnesses arise. From these six consciousnesses arise the three kinds of feelings, unpleasant feeling, pleasant feeling, neither unpleasant nor pleasant feeling. Pleasant feelings are loved by all beings; unpleasant feelings are hated by all beings; as for the neither unpleasant nor pleasant feelings, people neither reject them nor cling to them. Thus it is said:

Evil-doers and monks,
Gods, humans and small worms:
Amongst these beings divided among the five destinies in the ten directions,
There is not one that does not love happiness and hate suffering.
Out of error, mistake and ignorance,
They do not know nirvāṇa, the abode of eternal bliss.

Considering pleasant feeling, the yogin truly knows that it contains no happiness but only suffering. Why? Happiness, i.e., ‘true happiness’ is free of errors. And yet all the pleasant feelings of the world come from mistakes and contain no reality. Furthermore, while greedily seeking the happiness of pleasant feeling, one will encounter great suffering. Thus it is said:

Those who go to sea encounter heavy winds
The waves rise up as high as the Kālaparvata.
Those who go into the army to fight
Cross very dangerous paths and perilous gorges.
[...omitting material from the gatha...]
These many great sufferings
All come from attachment to happiness and to cupidity.

This is why we know that pleasant feeling can give rise to all sorts of suffering.

Furthermore, although the Buddha spoke of the three kinds of suffering, one of them, that of pleasant feeling, merits the name of suffering because in it happiness is rare. It is like a bushel of honey which, when thrown into a big river, loses its smell and its taste.

Question. – Happiness such as it is conceived in the world, having error as cause and condition, is suffering. But the concentrations practiced by the saints give rise to a pure happiness which itself is real happiness. Why? Because this happiness is not derived from delusion or mistake. How then could it be suffering?

Answer. – It is not suffering. [...]
(from "on mindfulness of feelings")

So what is the difference between craving for non-contact and craving for no suffering?
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.

(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by pitithefool »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:32 am I hope you don't mind if I migrate a post of yours from the "Samatha Bhavana" forum from the thread called "Can We Hear Sound in Jhana?"
Not at all :D
Are you familiar with the idea that one uses craving to destroy craving, views to destroy views? Contact is actually duhkha.
Yes, very much so.
As I understand it, there are three types of becoming:
Becoming in the sensual realm,
Beocming in the form realm,
Becoming in the formless realm,

It is by turning towards becoming in the form realm that one turns away from becoming in the sensual realm, then by becoming in the formless realm, one turns away from becoming in the form realm.

Also, as I understand it, according to SN 56.11
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. "

And what is craving conditioned by? Feeling.

Now feeling is both conditioned by contact and conditions contact, according to DO.

Also, as I understand it, jhana is not the goal, rather jhana is a "pleasant abiding"

Now since feeling is what conditions craving, if we extinguish craving for feeling by having such a pleasant abiding, would clinging, becoming, birth aging and death have grounds for coming into play?

Considering pleasant feeling, the yogin truly knows that it contains no happiness but only suffering. Why? Happiness, i.e., ‘true happiness’ is free of errors. And yet all the pleasant feelings of the world come from mistakes and contain no reality. Furthermore, while greedily seeking the happiness of pleasant feeling, one will encounter great suffering. Thus it is said:

Those who go to sea encounter heavy winds
The waves rise up as high as the Kālaparvata.
Those who go into the army to fight
Cross very dangerous paths and perilous gorges.
[...omitting material from the gatha...]
These many great sufferings
All come from attachment to happiness and to cupidity.
Yes, which is why we use jhana to first undercut craving (conditioned by feeling) in the sensual realm, then the formless realm to undercut craving (also conditioned by feeling) in the form realm.
Question. – Happiness such as it is conceived in the world, having error as cause and condition, is suffering. But the concentrations practiced by the saints give rise to a pure happiness which itself is real happiness. Why? Because this happiness is not derived from delusion or mistake. How then could it be suffering?
Jhana, although superior to sensuality and inferior to becoming in the formless, is still Anicca, dukkha and anatta.
So what is the difference between craving for non-contact and craving for no suffering?
In order to get to a place of no suffering, we must use our desire for pleasure to engage in jhana, seeing the drawbacks in sensuality. Then seeing the drawbacks in jhana, we engage in the formless becoming. Seeing the drawbacks in the most refined states, one is released from suffering.

Craving for non contact will beget more suffering.

With the extinguishing of craving comes the extinguishing of suffering.
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:50 pm
The text says nothing of the sort. The definition of being in the 2nd jhāna is the absence of vitakka-vicāra. It is repeated over and over again. Logically it follows that if vitakka-vicāra is happening, yet one is still in meditation, then there is a falling back.


Even in patisambhidamagga the arahant said the same thing and even more
in second jhana not only vitakka can "visit" you but the bliss of third jhana can visit you too and even nibbana can "visit" you while in second jhana
Patisambhidamagga 1.128
When perception and attention accompanied by applied-thought visit
an obtainer of the second jhana, that is an idea partaking of diminution.
When mindfulness in conformity with that [jhana] becomes stabilized,
that is an idea partaking of stagnation. When perception and attention
accompanied by equanimity and [bodily] pleasure visit him, that is an
idea partaking of distinction. When perception and attention accompanied by dispassion and allied to fading away of greed visit him, that is an idea
partaking of penetration.
from other sutta references, the imperturbable samadhi refers to 4th jhana or formless attainments. so the important point to take away here is even with an imperturbable samadhi being impure, the buddha only said it was impure, not that it doesn’t qualify as being called imperturbable, just as in the SN 40 moggallana (first 8 suttas) is practicing impure versions of the the 4 jhanas and formless attainments
vinaya pitaka parajika 4
"Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna addressed the monks: “Friends, after attaining an imperturbable samādhi on the banks of the river Sappinikā,I heard the noise of elephants plunging in, emerging and trumpeting.”

The monks criticised and denounced him: “How can Venerable Mahāmoggallāna say such a thing. He is claiming a super-human achievement.” They informed the Master.

“Monks, there is such a samādhi, but it is not wholly purified. Moggallāna spoke truly. There is no offence for Moggallāna.”



Whilst in the 1st jhāna hearing a sound will knock you off balance, just like how seeing a beautiful woman can knock a heterosexual man off balance in terms of sense restraint
.

Yes it can knock a heterosexual, so sound too can knock first jhana meditator out of that attainment ,the "can" is key here, there's no guarantee there but it's possible


You still avoid my question whether sound is thorn in jhana or outside of jhana
If whilst in jhāna the meditator slips and intention and attention is given to hearing a sound, then they will fall away from that state. Sound is a thorn to it, like pain is a thorn to happiness.
so What happens first sound entering first jhana or the fall to non jhana ?

I never quoted vibhanga so you don't contradict vibhanga sir, you contradict the buddha you contradict the sutta, but of course you are free to believe whatever you want to believe sir
No, but you rely heavily on English translations which are based on the Abhidhamma definition of kāmā. Based on the suttas alone, the kāmā are external objects not "sensual pleasures".

Kama can mean sensual desires or sensual pleasures and even sensual objects
But If you mean kama as sensual objects then if you are not deaf ,blind and completely disabled you can't ever enter jhana so it's either sensual desires or sensual pleasures but you said sensual pleasures is vibhanga term then the only possible meaning is sensual desires


Buddha said the pleasure and happiness that arise not the sense objects itself so in first jhana the pleasure and happiness regarding desirable sense objects won't arise, instead of happiness it's equanimity that arise from those 5 objects in first jhana
The mind is quite secluded from the external sights, sounds etc. From the kāmā,
It's not only about sight or sound sir if you are right if you still feel your heartbeat or your body or your breath you won't enter jhana except you are blind,deaf and don't have neural stimuli at all
The pleasure and happiness arises dependent upon the external sense objects:

Yaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ—ayaṁ kāmānaṁ assādo.

We can shorten to:

Any external sensual objects there are, the arising of pleasure and happiness dependent upon them is the enjoyment of them.

This is a standard teaching of contact giving rise to vedanā, which then follows to lust due to the underlying tendencies. When I see an alluring man (a kāmā) the underlying tendencies will be activated, in turn giving rise to pleasure and happiness. This is the enjoyment of the kāmā. Being fully secluded from the kāmā means not being able to see the attractive man walking by. The underlying tendencies are temporarily denied the chance to blossom, and so lust and pleasure do not arise.

If you mean not seeing sight or sound,etc is right concentration then the Buddha disagreed with you
An 5.113
“Mendicants, a mendicant who has five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can’t endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can’t enter and remain in right immersion.

A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion. What five? It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches. A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”

Consciousness is not part of the nāmakāya. This is a later Abhidhamma idea. For someone who wants to only rely on the suttas you sure do gulp down whole gallons of the Abhidhamma. Its surprising how many of the "sutta only" types unconsciously end up doing that. As for sañña it means more along the lines of "conceptualisation" than "perception", but that is a different topic.
So in 5 aggregates which is physical body which is mental body ?


It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual pleasure instead of completely secluded from sensual pleasures
Not even the Abhidhamma, which you are still yet to justify, defines the plural kāmā in the singular. This would be quite grammatically incorrect. According to the suttas, it is seclusion from the pretty things in the world (kāmā).
It's interesting that buddha said quite secluded from sensual desires instead of completely secluded from sensual desires/lust/passion/sensual pleasures

English is not my mother tongue regardless they are all nearly identical

Notice that buddha directly explicitly refer to desire and aversion not the sight itself as unskillful qualities and in first jhana you are quite secluded from desire and aversion
You are secluded from lust and unwholesome states because the underlying tendencies are no longer being activated by ignorance-based contact with the kāmā.
So do you mean due to no body contact no feeling arise thus no sensual craving then arise ?
Buddha rejected this saying blind people don't have craving doesn't mean his faculties is developed it's only when he sees but no feeling arise or he sees and feeling arise but no craving arise then truly his sense faculties developed

You seem to think that only when contact cease feeling cease and only when feeling cease lust/craving cease ,buddha said that craving can still be stilled even when feeling arise furthermore in cessation attainment you don't have feeling at all but you still have contact
It's quite secluded from sensual pleasures you can refer to your own quote
Once again, the suttas define kāmā as pretty things in the world. The Abhidhamma defines them as "sensual pleasures". Quoting English translations based on the Abhidhamma doesn't prove your point. It merely begs the question. It is circular reasoning, which is a logical fallacy. They seem popular on this page again.

It's bhante sujato translation so bhante sujato may be incorrect

kamehi is still unskillful mental qualities because buddha directly refer to desires and aversions as unskillful mental qualities then it's quite secluded from unskillful mental qualities or it's quite secluded from desires and aversions

Notice that it's quite secluded not completely secluded so you can still have 1 or 2 unskillful qualities yet still to enter jhana

Of course you can translate it as secluded from sense objects since if there's no contact there will be no lust/craving sir

But buddha said secluded from craving/lust/desires can happen even there is still feeling even there is still contact otherwise you need to explain how monks and lays still have feeling yet Don't have craving/lust

buddha said lay people can even attain non returner fruit

And Remember that even stream entry requires ordinary lay people to abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual cravings obviously ordinary people still have feeling if they have feeling that means they still have contact from 6 senses bases and they may not even attain first jhana but they already abandon fetter of sensual desires/sensual desire/lust

Or do you argue that even a stream entry need jhana ?


So sensual desires is what buddha considered as unskillful qualities
Kāma is, not the kāmā (plural).

So sensual desire is what the buddha considered as unskillful qualities
Mara is desire sir
Sn 23.35
Rādha, you should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra
Once again I'm dumbstruck as to why people quote suttas that actually go against their position. The sutta here clearly makes a distinction between desire/greed and Māra. In fact, the sutta goes on to define Māra as the 5 aggregates rather than desire:
Sn23.35
Rādha, you should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra. And what is Māra? Form is Māra. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for it. …

Consciousness is Māra. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for it. You should give up any desire, any greed, any desire and greed for whatever is Māra.”
Yes 5 aggregates is mara and any desire for 5 aggregates is mara too, unless you are blind buddha said desire for mara is mara ,he even repeated it twice ,or do you argue buddha need to repeat it more stressing it ?
Yes only when you gives up the desire for the world you go tothe end of the world
If there is intention and attention towards the senses then there is contact at vision, hearing and so on. If there is no intention and attention and no lust towards the 5 senses then there is no experience of the 5 senses as per MN 28. This is why renunciation is important and why no one can attain any jhāna without a firm foundation of sīla. You have to train the mind to turn away from the 5 senses, from indulging in sensual objects, as this turning away from sense experience is essential for any jhāna. If you cannot practice sense restraint then you cannot obtain the jhānā.
So do you mean by sense restraint buddha meaned no Sense-objects/no body-contacts ?

If that's the case Buddha disagreed with you
An4.14
And what, mendicants, is the effort to restrain? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, they don’t get caught up in the features and details. If the faculty of sight were left unrestrained, bad unskillful qualities of desire and aversion would become overwhelming
.


I still think you are smart sir that's why I don't bold part of every quotes because I think you can understand it by yourself please don't make me think otherwise
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:14 pm A further question. If the 1st jhāna is temporary freedom from sensual pleasures, why were the Buddha and the Arahants not constantly in jhāna or simply slipping into it quite at random? The Buddha would be totally free from sensual pleasures, as in lust. He wasn't totally free from sensual objects, until final nibbāna. We can then see how on an absorption based model the Buddha and Arahants would not be constantly in jhāna, or falling in and out of them at random. This becomes harder on a jhāna-lite model. How do you propose a solution to this contradiction in your argument?
The jhanas teach us how to see things with discernment and non-attachment. It's not that the arahants are slipping in and out of jhana, rather it's more like the discernment learned from it never leaves. This jhana teaches us applied discernment. Ajahn Chah used an interesting simile for this:
So you must contemplate in order to find peace. What people usually refer to as peace is simply the calming of the mind, not the calming of the defilements. The defilements are simply being temporarily subdued, just like grass covered by a rock. In three or four days you take the rock off the grass and in no long time it grows up again. The grass hadn't really died, it was simply being suppressed. It's the same when sitting in meditation: the mind is calmed but the defilements are not really calmed. Therefore, samadhi is not a sure thing. To find real peace you must develop wisdom. Samadhi is one kind of peace, like the rock covering the grass... in a few days you take the rock away and the grass grows up again. This is only a temporary peace. The peace of wisdom is like putting the rock down and not lifting it up, just leaving it where it is. The grass can't possibly grow again. This is real peace, the calming of the defilements, the sure peace which results from wisdom.
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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The next paragraph.
We speak of wisdom (pañña) and samadhi as separate things, but in essence they are one and the same. Wisdom is the dynamic function of samadhi; samadhi is the passive aspect of wisdom. They arise from the same place but take different directions, different functions, like this mango here. A small green mango eventually grows larger and larger until it is ripe. It is all the same mango, the larger one and the ripe one are all the same mango, but its condition changes. In Dhamma practice, one condition is called samadhi, the later condition is called pañña, but in actuality sila, samadhi, and pañña are all the same thing, just like the mango.
The non-absorbed model teaches tandem development of calm and insight. As insight develops, so does calm, and as calm develops, so does more insight. They cannot be separated from each other. At the beginning, this manifests as vitakka-vicara, but then we can let go of willing it and just be with peace. These makes panna more automatic and the more we practice, the more we start to apply this to every day life and let things go, first by willing, then it becomes automatic. Like never picking the rock up after which the grass dies.
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:58 am Now since feeling is what conditions craving, if we extinguish craving for feeling by having such a pleasant abiding, would clinging, becoming, birth aging and death have grounds for coming into play?


Yes, which is why we use jhana to first undercut craving (conditioned by feeling) in the sensual realm, then the formless realm to undercut craving (also conditioned by feeling) in the form realm.
I reread and it seems like these two statements are connected and it sounds incoherent. They're not connected. The answer to the first statement is "no; clinging, becoming, birth aging and death do not come into play when craving is extinguished"

The second statement was in response to a quote from scripture.
In order to get to a place of no suffering, we must use our desire for pleasure to engage in jhana, seeing the drawbacks in sensuality. Then seeing the drawbacks in jhana, we engage in the formless becoming. Seeing the drawbacks in the most refined states, one is released from suffering.

Craving for non contact will beget more suffering.

With the extinguishing of craving comes the extinguishing of suffering.
It also must be noted that there is still feeling until nirodha-samapatti. If we look at all of the sankhara listed in DO, we abandon them stepwise. First we abandon vitakka-vicara, then in-and-out breathing, then finally feeling and perception. It's only then that the conditions for contact cease and it can be said that contact itself ceases. Otherwise, as long as there are sankhara, there will be consciousness, nama-rupa, salayatana and contact.

Feeling and perception are still present in the formless, but infinite space, infinite consciousness and nothingness are the only places ever explicitly stated to be divorce from the 5 senses.

Again, I want to point out, that this information above is all based on teachings found in the sutta pitaka that are stated explicitly. The argument that contact at the 5 senses ceases upon entry into the first jhana has to be inferred.

Again I also want to make it clear that whether contact at the five senses occurs in the first jhana has apparently long been a point of contention. I'm trying to stick with what has been explicitly stated by the sutta pitaka, and I find nothing stating that contact at the five sense does not occur in the first jhana. I may be able to conclude that since either model explicitly states that all contact ceases at nirodha samapatti, that it may not really matter at whether contact at the 5 senses occurs in the first jhana. Again, if it mattered, you would expect it to be explicitly stated somewhere in the sutta pitaka, and it's not.
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ratnakar »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:41 pm
Feeling and perception are still present in the formless, but infinite space, infinite consciousness and nothingness are the only places ever explicitly stated to be divorce from the 5 senses.
Even in imperturbable concentration you can hear sound
Dn 21
“She did bow, lord of gods, and I remember what she said. I also remember that it was the sound of your chariot wheels that pulled me out of that immersion.”
Ud 3.3
"For a third time, as the night was getting late, in the last watch of the night, Ānanda got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha and said, “Sir, the night is getting late. It is the last watch of the night; dawn stirs, bringing joy to the night, and the visiting mendicants have been sitting long. Sir, please greet the visiting mendicants.”

Then the Buddha emerged from that immersion and addressed Ānanda,
“If you’d known, Ānanda, you wouldn’t have said so much. Both I and these five hundred mendicants have been sitting in imperturbable meditation"
Vinaya pitaka parajika 4
Then the Venerable Mahāmoggallāna addressed the monks: “Friends, after attaining an imperturbable samādhi on the banks of the river Sappinikā,I heard the noise of elephants plunging in, emerging and trumpeting.”

The monks criticised and denounced him: “How can Venerable Mahāmoggallāna say such a thing. He is claiming a super-human achievement.” They informed the Master.

“Monks, there is such a samādhi, but it is not wholly purified. Moggallāna spoke truly. There is no offence for Moggallāna.”
And what is imperturbable concentration ?
An4.190
“And how has a monk attained to the imperturbable? It’s when a monk—going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity—aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, he enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness. Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, he enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, he enters and remains in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. That’s how a monk has attained to the imperturbable.”
Again I also want to make it clear that whether contact at the five senses occurs in the first jhana has apparently long been a point of contention. I'm trying to stick with what has been explicitly stated by the sutta pitaka, and I find nothing stating that contact at the five sense does not occur in the first jhana. I may be able to conclude that since either model explicitly states that all contact ceases at nirodha samapatti, that it may not really matter at whether contact at the 5 senses occurs in the first jhana. Again, if it mattered, you would expect it to be explicitly stated somewhere in the sutta pitaka, and it's not
.

Even in cessation attainment there is contact, but contact without feeling is nothing
In the same way you can have cessation of craving without cessation of feeling since arahant still have feeling
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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Ratnakar wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:41 pm ..
the post is like that because the post you quoted contains quote what is regular quote(without address)
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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Ratnakar wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:41 pm
Even in imperturbable concentration you can hear sound
Divorced from the 5 senses then must mean simply "not associated with them". Is that how you understand it?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

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pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:34 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:41 pm
Even in imperturbable concentration you can hear sound
Divorced from the 5 senses then must mean simply "not associated with them". Is that how you understand it?
It means not giving rise to intention and attention towards them. Intention and attention are required for sense contact to occur, as per MN 28. This is why virtue and renunciation are necessary pre-requisites. A mind that can’t keep virtue and sense restraint can never enter jhāna for such a mind is always intending towards the 5 senses.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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pitithefool
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:42 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:34 pm
Ratnakar wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:41 pm
Even in imperturbable concentration you can hear sound
Divorced from the 5 senses then must mean simply "not associated with them". Is that how you understand it?
It means not giving rise to intention and attention towards them. Intention and attention are required for sense contact to occur, as per MN 28. This is why virtue and renunciation are necessary pre-requisites. A mind that can’t keep virtue and sense restraint can never enter jhāna for such a mind is always intending towards the 5 senses.
YES!!!!!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Jhana and the early Mahayana

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:44 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:42 pm
pitithefool wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:34 pm

Divorced from the 5 senses then must mean simply "not associated with them". Is that how you understand it?
It means not giving rise to intention and attention towards them. Intention and attention are required for sense contact to occur, as per MN 28. This is why virtue and renunciation are necessary pre-requisites. A mind that can’t keep virtue and sense restraint can never enter jhāna for such a mind is always intending towards the 5 senses.
YES!!!!!
So you agree now then that whilst in a jhāna there is no experience of the 5 senses? This would be great news.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

AN 5.95
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