Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
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Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by DooDoot »

Dear forum

SN 12.20 and AN 3.136, in referring to the supramundane Laws of Nature (Dhamma), appear to say the Laws of Dhamma are "fixed" ("ṭhitā"), regardless of perception of them, as follows:
Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles...

Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṁ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato
Does the above imply the supramundane Laws of Dhamma are "unconditioned elements" (asaṅkhatādhātu)?

For example, is the permanence of impermanence "unconditioned"? Is the inherent conditionality (idappaccayatā) of conditioned things "unconditioned"?

Thank you for any definitive scripture view (either sutta, Abhidhamma or commentary). Otherwise, please discuss. :smile:

No Brahministic solipsism please. :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mjaviem
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by mjaviem »

Dear DooDoot

I hope this quote from Ajahn Chah adds vakue to this tooic
...
Now the states of good and evil are constant truths. Dhamma means that which is constant, which maintains itself. Turmoil maintains its turmoil, serenity maintains its serenity. Good and evil maintain their respective conditions - like hot water: it maintains its hotness, it doesn't change for anybody. Whether a young person or an old person drink it, it's hot. It's hot for every nationality of people. So Dhamma is defined as that which maintains its condition. In our practice we must know heat and coolness, right and wrong, good and evil. Knowing evil, for example, we will not create the causes for evil, and evil will not arise.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by pegembara »

136. Arising
“Mendicants, whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles: all conditions are impermanent. A Realized One understands this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All conditions are impermanent.’

Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles: all conditions are suffering. A Realized One understands this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All conditions are suffering.’

Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles: all things are not-self. A Realized One understands this and comprehends it, then he explains, teaches, asserts, establishes, clarifies, analyzes, and reveals it: ‘All things are not-self.’”
No. The Laws of Dhamma are not the uncreated but just laws of nature.

The law merely states that all that arises passes away and all arisings are unsatisfactory. And also all things including the uncreated/unfabricated are not-self.

The realisation leads to the Uncreated through disenchantment and dispassion and cessation.
“Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘I have discovered this path to enlightenment, that is, with the cessation of name-and-form comes cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness comes cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’

“Suppose, bhikkhus, a man wandering through a forest would see an ancient path, an ancient road travelled upon by people in the past. He would follow it and would see an ancient city, an ancient capital that had been inhabited by people in the past, with parks, groves, ponds, and ramparts, a delightful place. Then the man would inform the king or a royal minister: ‘Sire, know that while wandering through the forest I saw an ancient path, an ancient road travelled upon by people in the past. I followed it and saw an ancient city, an ancient capital that had been inhabited by people in the past, with parks, groves, ponds, and ramparts, a delightful place. Renovate that city, sire!’ Then the king or the royal minister would renovate the city, and some time later that city would become successful and prosperous, well populated, filled with people, attained to growth and expansion.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.65/en/bodhi
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:01 am The realisation leads to the Uncreated through disenchantment and dispassion and cessation.
OK. So you are suggesting what is "permanent" or "fixed" is not necessarily synonymous with what is "unconditioned".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Bundokji
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by Bundokji »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:26 pm Does the above imply the supramundane Laws of Dhamma are "unconditioned elements" (asaṅkhatādhātu)?
It implies that persistence is a characteristic of the laws of nature, mundane or supramundane.
is the permanence of impermanence "unconditioned"?
No. It is conditioned by forming impermanence into a law that persists in time.
Is the inherent conditionality (idappaccayatā) of conditioned things "unconditioned"?
By definition, conditioned things lack inherent nature. False assumptions lead to false conclusions.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mjaviem
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by mjaviem »

pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:01 am ...
No. The Laws of Dhamma are not the uncreated but just laws of nature.

...
Isn't it that seeing the Dhamma is seeing the unconditioned? Isn't it that the Dhamma is the uncreated? Aren't the laws of Dhamma the Dhamma itself? How is it that they are not Dhamma and not uncreated?
Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:49 am ...
is the permanence of impermanence "unconditioned"?
No. It is conditioned by forming impermanence into a law that persists in time.
...
Wouldn't it be then this impermanence forming unconditioned? Isn't it the Dhamma itself?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Bundokji
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:49 am Wouldn't it be then this impermanence forming unconditioned? Isn't it the Dhamma itself?
You are equating forming impermanence into a law that persists in time, with impermanence forming being unconditioned (whatever that means), which does not make any sense. The unconditioned is an element in nature (nibbana), not a law of nature. Also note that knowing nibbana is not the aim of the spiritual life, so knowing nibbana has a function in fulfilling the spiritual life, and that does not make it any less unconditioned.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mjaviem
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:15 am ... The unconditioned is an element in nature (nibbana), not a law of nature. Also note that knowing nibbana is not the aim of the spiritual life, so knowing nibbana has a function in fulfilling the spiritual life, and that does not make it any less unconditioned.
I see. I'll consider it. Thanks.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
pegembara
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Re: Are idappaccayatā, aniccā, dukkhā & anattā asaṅkhata ????

Post by pegembara »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:49 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:01 am ...
No. The Laws of Dhamma are not the uncreated but just laws of nature.

...
Isn't it that seeing the Dhamma is seeing the unconditioned? Isn't it that the Dhamma is the uncreated? Aren't the laws of Dhamma the Dhamma itself? How is it that they are not Dhamma and not uncreated?
In a way yes. You jump off a building and the forces of gravity will apply. Isaac Newton didn't create the law of gravity but merely discovered it. Or energy cannot be created or destroyed. I think these can be called the niyamas.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/topic/5-niyama/

However, Nibbana(Uncreated) does not refer to this.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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