Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Eko Care
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Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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In this book, Russell Bowden says that the chronological theories of European-based scholars such as Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger ..etc are not based on known facts.
Then the EBT book list may subject to change.
Russell Bowden: Writing down of the Pali Tripitaka at Aloka Vihara in Sri Lanka


Facts vs Theories
As so often in Buddhist Studies, and as the quotations above prove, facts are not always easy to come by. In their place theories thrive and speculations grow. These theories relates, in the main, to critical comments made in the last two centuries of European-based Buddhist Studies by a host of scholars ranging from Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger through to Malalasekara and Law and more contemporary scholars such as Adikaram, Rahula and Gunawardana.
1. 2. 3. ... 11. ...
Almost all these theories require to be tested and can not be allowed to pass without comment.

... are not based on known facts. ...
... may be related to what they believed ....
... Historical sources do not bear this interpretation out. ...
... seems to be far too radical a theory to accept.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:54 pm
Almost all these theories require to be tested and can not be allowed to pass without comment.
Obviously the above applies equally to the alternate theories. This topic appears to be the same type of unknowable speculative topics you started previously. Obviously, no one can know as fact how the suttas were compiled chronologically. However, it appears high logical the teachings began with here-&-now teachings, such as the Four Noble Truths and the Three Characteristics, and then broadened in scope as the scope of the Buddha's audience broadened to include more laypeople and puthujjana. For 2600 years, the True Dhamma has been defined as sandiṭṭhiko dhammo hoti, akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhī (visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves). Obviously, the teachings started in this way, such as in SN 56.11, where Kondanna realised with clear direct insight: "All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation".
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:54 pm In this book, Russell Bowden says that the chronological theories of European-based scholars such as Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger ..etc are not based on known facts.
Then the EBT book list may subject to change.
Who is Russell Bowden and why should we believe him over Rhys Davids, et al?

And what's wrong with being "European-based"? Is being a Pali scholar limited to Asians only? Is Bowden, Asian?
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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DNS wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:38 pm Who is Russell Bowden et al?
Some of the information about him: Demise of Prof. Russell Bowden
DNS wrote: why should we believe him over Rhys Davids ?
same can be asked back:
why should we believe Rhys Davids over him ?
DNS wrote: And what's wrong with being "European-based"?
He meant modern believers of chronology and modern sciences as definitive and trustworthy.
wrote: Is being a Pali scholar limited to Asians only?
If he is still alive, I could ask that directly from him. Unfortunately he has passed away.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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DNS wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:38 pm Is Bowden, Asian?
Oh, In case it was,
would you be reluctant to accept his arguments over Rhys Davids ???

Regards.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:15 pm same can be asked back:
why should we believe Rhys Davids over him ?
Exactly, which appears to show why this sort of topic can only result in pointless speculative bickering about unimportant things unrelated to the goal of the Holy Life.
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:20 pm Oh, In case it was,
would you be reluctant to accept his arguments over Rhys Davids ???
Irrelevant. Where did the Buddha ever teach to take refuge in Rhys David or Russell Bowden ???
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:15 pm same can be asked back:
why should we believe Rhys Davids over him ?
Yes, question all of them. I looked at their analysis, it makes sense (to me).
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:20 pm
DNS wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:38 pm Is Bowden, Asian?
Oh, In case it was,
would you be reluctant to accept his arguments over Rhys Davids ???

Regards.
Of course not; why would that matter. You (or Bowden) brought up the "European-based" comment.
If he is still alive, I could ask that directly from him. Unfortunately he has passed away.
Never mind, I see from his bio, born in Manchester, UK that he was "European-based" too and of course nothing wrong with that; I'm sure he was a highly competent scholar.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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DNS wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:21 pm Yes, question all of them. I looked at their analysis, it makes sense (to me).
Acceptable.
DNS wrote: You (or Bowden) brought up the "European-based" comment.
It's from him. And it's about chronological beliefs.

Regards.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:31 pm chronological beliefs.
You appear to be fixated on the above matter. Please make clear what you are concerned about here? Thanks :thanks:

For example, i noticed you appear to hold the belated Jataka Tales (such as about the Buddha's past live as a parrot) as some of the most important scriptures to follow; and appear to hold the Jataka Tales to be more important & essential than the Buddha's 1st, 2nd & 3rd Sermons.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Truth may not be what you think as truth.
As always the actual facts are scanty.
For instance Malalasekera suggests “Thus the statement that until Vattagamani Abhaya the whole
Buddhist canon was transmitted orally, is an exaggeration. It may be that in Vattagamani’s time they were still unarranged, rare,
imperfect and full of inaccuracies, as even now in manuscripts.” [Malalasekera. 1994. 45]
This, I believe, has to be taken with a pinch of salt because it is highly unlikely that the shape and contents of the Tipitaka after the completion of the Third Council would have been left ‘unarranged’ and ‘imperfect’. If, as all along we have argued, the Tipitaka took shape through the years of works of the Indian Bhanakas, and this work it was that Mahinda later brought to Sri Lanka, then it is difficult to imagine that the order of any earlier written manuscripts would not have been in accord with these.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:54 pm ...



Interesting.

Some of Caroline Rhys Davids' personal opinions, arguments, and explanations (not the translations) found in introductions and elsewhere, seem quite weird to me; and then I found this:
  • Wikipedia wrote:Although earlier in her career she accepted more mainstream beliefs about Buddhist teachings, later in life she rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.


And, imo, I.B.Horner inherited some of her inclinations, not necessarily limited to the above mentioned atta-ish ones.



However, some self-proclaimed Early Buddhists may rejoice very much in Ms. Rhys Davids idea of:
  • Wikipedia wrote: ... rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.
:lol:
.


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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

Post by Eko Care »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: wrote:
Caroline Rhys Davids' personal opinions
  • Wikipedia wrote: later in life she rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.
I.B.Horner inherited some of her inclinations, not necessarily limited to the above mentioned atta-ish ones.
We can find more views of them, if we start to investigate whether or not a particular author is eligible to comment on texts.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:53 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:54 pm ...



Interesting.

Some of Caroline Rhys Davids' personal opinions, arguments, and explanations (not the translations) found in introductions and elsewhere, seem quite weird to me; and then I found this:
  • Wikipedia wrote:Although earlier in her career she accepted more mainstream beliefs about Buddhist teachings, later in life she rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.


And, imo, I.B.Horner inherited some of her inclinations, not necessarily limited to the above mentioned atta-ish ones.



However, some self-proclaimed Early Buddhists may rejoice very much in Ms. Rhys Davids idea of:
  • Wikipedia wrote: ... rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.
:lol:
The texts are not homogenous. This was the beginning of EBT. Seeing the layers. There are layers. DN1 is arrived at by a process of accretion.
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

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plabit wrote:
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:53 pm However, some self-proclaimed Early Buddhists may rejoice very much in Ms. Rhys Davids idea of:
The texts are not homogenous. This was the beginning of EBT.
I heard that the word EBT was created by a feminist, but don't know exactly how it was?
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Re: Rhys Davids, Horner, Geiger - All these theories can not be allowed to pass without comment.

Post by zerotime »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:53 pm Interesting.

Some of Caroline Rhys Davids' personal opinions, arguments, and explanations (not the translations) found in introductions and elsewhere, seem quite weird to me; and then I found this:
  • Wikipedia wrote:Although earlier in her career she accepted more mainstream beliefs about Buddhist teachings, later in life she rejected the concept of anatta as an "original" Buddhist teaching.
And, imo, I.B.Horner inherited some of her inclinations, not necessarily limited to the above mentioned atta-ish ones.
in the book "Wayfarer's Words", Caroline Rhys Davids writes the true interpretation of the Buddhist doctrine is about God and the Holy Spirit. Read in example page 302 and following:

https://archive.org/details/wayfarerswo ... 3/mode/2up

according her views, the Buddha suffered of strong doubts, and also the meanings of main Buddhist notions like anatta were later inventions.
In a general way, her idea was about the existence of only one gospel from some divine force who distributed the thing using Jesus, Buddha and the rest.

** Please, Do you have another link for the Russell Bowden article besides JSTOR?. I don't have access right now.
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