Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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DooDoot
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Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

Post by DooDoot »

This topic is a working hypothesis rather than an assertion of fact.

The working hypothesis is the use of certain relatively rare Pali words may possibly be used to determine sutta chronology.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Is the hypothesis that such words could indicate that it is "early" or "late"?

I have heard a similar argument made regarding the Sutta Nipata and the absence of "boilerplate" text, which is said to suggest it is early.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

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Regardless of whatever possible questionable motives, Bhikkhu Analayo went to great kammic risk, pains & effort to point out MN 117 was probably a late sutta, in that it contained Abhidhammic language, such as:
MN 117 wrote:It’s the thinking — the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes — in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path.

Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro—

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato
MN 117 also contains the words: anuparidhāvanti & anuparivattanti, used in a Noble way as follows:
MN 117 wrote:So these three things keep running and circling around right view, namely: right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

Itiyime tayo dhammā sammādiṭṭhiṁ anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti, seyyathidaṁ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati.
These two words anuparidhāvanti & anuparivattanti are also found in two suttas about samsara, as follows:
SN 22.99 wrote:Suppose a dog on a leash was tethered to a strong post or pillar. It would just keep running and circling around that post or pillar.

Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, sā gaddulabaddho daḷhe khīle vā thambhe vā upanibaddho tameva khīlaṁ vā thambhaṁ vā anuparidhāvati anuparivattati;

In the same way, take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in their teaching. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in their teaching. They regard form … feeling … perception … choices … consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. They just keep running and circling around form, feeling, perception, choices and consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/sujato
MN 102 wrote:The ascetics and brahmins who assert the annihilation, eradication, and obliteration of an existing being; from fear and disgust with identity, they just keep running and circling around identity.

Ye kho te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti te sakkāyabhayā sakkāyaparijegucchā sakkāyaññeva anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti.

Suppose a dog on a leash was tethered to a strong post or pillar. It would just keeping running and circling around that post or pillar.

Seyyathāpi nāma sā gaddulabaddho daḷhe thambhe vā khile vā upanibaddho, tameva thambhaṁ vā khilaṁ vā anuparidhāvati anuparivattati;

In the same way, those ascetics and brahmins, from fear and disgust with identity, just keep running and circling around identity.

evamevime bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā sakkāyabhayā sakkāyaparijegucchā sakkāyaññeva anuparidhāvanti anuparivattanti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn102/en/sujato
If anuparidhāvanti & anuparivattanti are only found in three suttas and, if one of these appears certainly late, can we assume all three suttas are late? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:53 am Regardless of whatever possible questionable motives, Bhikkhu Analayo went to great kammic risk, pains & effort to point out MN 117 was probably a late sutta, in that it contained Abhidhammic language, such as:
I've heard this, but I didn't find it in the least bit convincing, since it's far more likely to me that Suttas such as this one inspired the Abhidhamma, rather than the other way around.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Linguistic approach to sutta chronology

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retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:48 am I have heard a similar argument made regarding the Sutta Nipata and the absence of "boilerplate" text, which is said to suggest it is early.
I recall Bhikkhu Sujato debunked the above argument on the basis the relevant sections of the Sutta Nipata use old language because they are written as "verse" or "poetry", similar to how a poet today may use old English for the purpose of poetry. Also, the fact these same verses of the Sutta Nipata receive detailed explanations in the other sections of the suttas shows they appear to be trite in-brief teachings of Dhamma given to those Brahmin Students (sent by their Guru to visit the Buddha) probably familiar with the style of poems or songs of the Vedas. In short, the Sutta Nipata simply contains verses using a different style of language for both the poetic nature of the teachings and for the audience. The old language appears unrelated to chronology here.
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:57 am I've heard this, but I didn't find it in the least bit convincing, since it's far more likely to me that Suttas such as this one inspired the Abhidhamma, rather than the other way around.
While i found Bhikkhu Analayo's assertion convincing, it appears your assertion above certainly cannot be disproven. Certainly, it could be MN 117 inspired the Abhidhamma.

However, returning to MN 117, it appears it is the only place in the suttas where sammāsaṅkappo is defined as it is, which includes the word "abhiniropanā" only found in MN 117 yet many times in Abhidhamma. Personally, i find nothing specifically "supramundane" about MN 117's supramundane definition of sammāsaṅkappo; just as i find nothing specifically "mundane" about the standard definition of sammāsaṅkappo (in SN 45.8, etc); therefore i doubt the Buddha spoke the MN 117 sutta; even though, unlike Bhikkhu Analayo's high risk kamma, I regard MN 117 as one of the most important suttas in the Canon. If not spoken by the Buddha, I certainly regard it as composed by an Arahant or otherwise highly realised monk. My point is any type of thought, be it metta, non-harming or vitakka-vicara of jhana, can be supramundane if it is free from self-view.

This said, the supramundane definition of sammāsaṅkappo in MN 117 certainly does not trangress Dhamma principles, despite its uniqueness. Bhikkhu Sujato now holds this view and has abandoned Bhikkhu Analayo's (and Brahmali's) attempt to marginalize MN 117.
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sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Not quite sure this is what you mean, but using the evolution of the english language over a 40 year period it sometimes becomes difficult to keep up with new generations as they use words in new ways and invent new meanings to old words. As The Buddha adapted his teaching to suit his audience, no doubt he used words to suit. As such a discourse to educated old people could use different words than one to 'hip young dudes', even at the same time frame, perhaps at times confusing the issue.
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Re:

Post by DooDoot »

sunnat wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:39 am Not quite sure this is what you mean, but using the evolution of the english language over a 40 year period it sometimes becomes difficult to keep up with new generations as they use words in new ways and invent new meanings to old words. As The Buddha adapted his teaching to suit his audience, no doubt he used words to suit. As such a discourse to educated old people could use different words than one to 'hip young dudes', even at the same time frame, perhaps at times confusing the issue.
Thank you Sunnat. My impression is the three suttas I posted are unlikely related to a new audience because they are mostly about common themes found in standard suttas. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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