i dont like the term 'unbound'

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Dhammanando
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Re: i dont like the term 'unbound'

Post by Dhammanando »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:27 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:20 am It may well be that Ajahn Thanissaro's choice .. comports better with the Ajahn Mun tradition's consciousness mysticism, to which Thanissaro is strongly committed.
Bhante, Isn't it a deviation from classical Theravada?
The consciousness mysticism certainly is, for viññānam anidassanam is not nibbāna.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Pondera
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Re: i dont like the term 'unbound'

Post by Pondera »

Consciousness is not awareness. Consciousness is a technical term used to link sense faculty with sense object.

When mind objects cease to register with mind faculty because mind-consciousness has also ceased - then we still have mind. Mind cannot be destroyed. It can be released from the skhandas however (and that includes “released from consciousness” in the technical sense).
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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DooDoot
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Re: i dont like the term 'unbound'

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:27 am Bhante, Isn't it a deviation from classical Theravada?
It appears the Venerable suggested it was derived from Buddhaghosa. Is not Buddhaghosa "classical Theravada"? :shrug:
Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:14 pm Classical Theravada followers had the interpretation of the word "Thatagata" as the "Being/Satta/Atta" in those (Abyakata Vagga) specific suttas's commentaries. Therefore, most of the non-classical Theravadins who disrespect the commentaries, have the risk of being trapped in to "Puggala Vada".
What on earth are you taking about above? :?
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Pondera
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Re: i dont like the term 'unbound'

Post by Pondera »

Take for example the utterance of all Arahant upon realizing Nibbana
He directly knew: “Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” And the Venerable Bahiya became one of the arahants.
Or take for example:
"Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."
How does “knowledge” arise in one who is “unaware”.

Because sense “consciousness” has ceased many assume the mendicant is “unconscious”. This is a misappropriation of the technical sense in which “consciousness” is used.

When cessation is entered, sense objects do not cease, nor do sense faculties. Only “sense-consciousness” has left the picture.

In “cessation of perception and feeling” (which is a “cessation attainment”) this is said:
When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear.
Their faculties are very clear, but there is no perception or feeling occurring. That should tell you something.

Of course, I recognize that Nibbana evades all description. For example, I think the following illustrates that point and addresses the question we’re discussing quite well:
"If anyone were to say with regard to a monk whose mind is thus released that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' is his view, that would be mistaken; that 'The Tathagata does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death'... that 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is his view, that would be mistaken. Why? Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released. [To say that,] 'The monk released, having directly known that, does not see, does not know is his opinion,' that would be mistaken. [1]
To put a positive spin on Nibbana is grounded in the suttas. One cannot be “unaware” when “knowledge and vision of ending” arises and is the final mark of an accomplished Arahant. 🧐
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Coëmgenu
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Re: i dont like the term 'unbound'

Post by Coëmgenu »

"(Un)bound" comes from "(nir)vāna." There are two senses of both "vāna" and "vāyati," one of which refers to blowing or emitting air and the other to sewing or "binding." The PTS dictionary identifies a "by-form" (meaning here an irregular form of a word, often one whose formation or development is obscure or unexpected) of vāyati as "vināti." Not being an expert, I would guess that these two words became conflated at one stage of the language.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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