Words of the Buddha

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Words of the Buddha

Post by Ceisiwr »

I realise this is speculative but I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on if the suttas and agamas contain the direct words and teachings of the Buddha, either fully or in part, or not and what reasons you have for your position?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by mikenz66 »

Fascinating question. Clearly, it's not possible to know for certain by analysis. Yet people have have faith, and go for refuge, in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. And it changes their lives.

Your question is fundamental to what it really means to go for refuge. Given that the words we have are unlikely to be verbatim transcripts, is it helpful to cling to the words? On the other hand, without those words we would know nothing of the Dhamma.

Thank you for bringing this up... :anjali:

:heart:
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Bundokji
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Bundokji »

I don't think they are the exact words of the Buddha, and they have been recited and collected during the first council, so it is a collective work, and the way its been recited is conducive to inducing meditative experiences. The Buddha is a central figure in the suttas, and the orderliness of the dhamma implies a unified understanding, either by the central figure, or by those who worked on it collectively. If the Buddha was a human in flesh and blood, i do not think he would be so repetitive as in the suttas. There are also suttas which makes commentary on mind states. I do not remember which sutta was it, where the disciple was presenting a nihilistic view and thought that the Buddha was agreeing with him.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:03 pm I realise this is speculative but I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on if the suttas and agamas contain the direct words and teachings of the Buddha, either fully or in part, or not and what reasons you have for your position?
Ananda and the attendant before him were chosen for their excellent memory, so what he recalled would be good enough. I am not so sure about later translation or rendering of the dialect or language Buddha spoke into what is called Pali.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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cappuccino
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:03 pm I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on if the suttas and agamas contain the direct words and teachings of the Buddha, either fully or in part, or not and what reasons you have for your position?
have faith


skepticism is a fetter
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Eko Care
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Eko Care »

After reading a Text, a puthujjana decides it as the Dhamma/Authentic/Refuge, because:
  • Of Faith
  • They like
  • Others say
  • Of Inference
  • It conforms with their view
Faith => Blind Faith / Reasonable Faith
Inference => Blind Inference / Reasonable Inference

Also due to (sub categories such as):
  • Fear (of being refugeless)
  • Intuition
  • Points given in Kalama Sutta
A puthujjana decides a given text as Adhamma/Inauthentic/Non-refuge due to the same kind of causes mentioned above.

(I think)
dharmacorps
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by dharmacorps »

The only thing I can say is that there is a consistent, coherent voice and message of something in the canon, pointing a common direction. Based on the genius of the voices in the canon, I can only help but think there is quite a bit of the Buddha there.
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:11 pm After reading a Text, a puthujjana decides it as the Dhamma/Authentic/Refuge, because:
  • Of Faith
  • They like
  • Others say
  • Of Inference
  • It conforms with their view
Faith => Blind Faith / Reasonable Faith
Inference => Blind Inference / Reasonable Inference

Also due to (sub categories such as):
  • Fear (of being refugeless)
  • Intuition
  • Points given in Kalama Sutta
A puthujjana decides a given text as Adhamma/Inauthentic/Non-refuge due to the same kind of causes mentioned above.

(I think)
Well, I think it is safe for us to see that the 5 Nikayas are authentic teachings of the Buddha. I think if need to examine the new teachings from modern monks, then I will check with Kathavathu.
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mjaviem
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by mjaviem »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:59 pm ... i do not think he would be so repetitive as in the suttas...
I think repetition facilitates memorization. So it is possible that he was repetitive when giving a discourse. Nobody was writing them down, only listening, and it was truly important stuff to be remembered so he probably was repetitive as we see in the suttas in order to make sure his teaching was going to be remembered.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
sunnat
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by sunnat »

also he delivered some 80000 teachings over 45 years to a wide ranging audience and as The Dhamma is something really simple with a clear path one expects a lot of fundamental repetition. Where there appears to be different it's only so because of the complicated audience.

The Dhamma remains the same.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:03 pm I realise this is speculative ... if the suttas and agamas contain the direct words and teachings of the Buddha, either fully or in part, or not ...

direct words
  • literal (words for words):
    • in part
  • retold (paraphrased):
    • a great majority
teachings
  • fully + some ornamentations





Reasons:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
Bundokji
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:15 pm I think repetition facilitates memorization. So it is possible that he was repetitive when giving a discourse. Nobody was writing them down, only listening, and it was truly important stuff to be remembered so he probably was repetitive as we see in the suttas in order to make sure his teaching was going to be remembered.
The content itself though does not imply memorization as we know it. The exchanges that took place as portrayed in the suttas imply dynamic interactions where answers are contextualized to convey knowledge rather than repetition. The dynamic nature of the teaching is complemented with a uniformity in style which includes repetition that is more suitable for recitation than reading. Reading is interpretive, recitation is not.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Dweller
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by Dweller »

I realized that faith is needed for me to properly practice Buddha's teachings. Faith in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

So I consider the whole Canon as authentic and relevant for practice. Including parts not even claiming to be from the Buddha. Also, commentaries are accepted by me, as long as they don't contradict the suttas.

This doesn't mean I think there was nothing possibly added over time. And I am convinced that EBT people have found what suttas are surely among the oldest. But I'm not convinced that the rest of Canon is not authentic. When considering given arguments, there are just so many other possible explanations.
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DooDoot
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Re: Words of the Buddha

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:03 pm I realise this is speculative...
Indeed. In Islam, there are hundreds of thousand "hadiths" attributed to Mohammed (PBUH). In Theravada, there is Jataka, Abhidhamma, etc. An objective individual would ask: "who had the authority to compose & add such texts to scripture? Surely, such clergy could also compose sutta?"

"Truth" can only be something provable or verifiable. Therefore, as the suttas say: "Seeing the Dhamma, sees the Buddha".

Its interesting how many internet bloggers who have never taken formal refuge in the Tripe Gem take their thoughts about Buddhism so seriously. These blogger don't even know what the Dhamma thus Buddha Refuge is.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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