Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

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DooDoot
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Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by DooDoot »

Dear forum

Apart from "rupa" being in the 6th fetter and apart from the term "rupa" being used in the description of the dimension of the infinitude of space, where is the specific term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Thank you :thanks:
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SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

After reaching the first jhana the ardent meditator can go on to reach the higher jhanas, which is done by eliminating the coarser factors in each jhana. Beyond the four jhanas lies another fourfold set of higher meditative states which deepen still further the element of serenity. These attainments (aruppa), are the base of boundless space, the base of boundless consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.[4] In the Pali commentaries these come to be called the four immaterial jhanas (arupajhana), the four preceding states being renamed for the sake of clarity, the four fine-material jhanas (rupajhana). Often the two sets are joined together under the collective title of the eight jhanas or the eight attainments (atthasamapattiyo).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el351.html
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

Arūpajjhānas are the Dhammasanganī's term for what in the Suttas are called the four āruppas or the fifth to eighth of the vimokkhas.

Rūpajjhānas are the commentaries' term for what in the Suttas are simply called jhānas.

I don't think either term is found in the Suttas.
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In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:28 am In the Pali commentaries these come to be called the four immaterial jhanas (arupajhana),
Bhante Gunaratana is mistaken. The term first appears in the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:52 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:28 am In the Pali commentaries these come to be called the four immaterial jhanas (arupajhana),
Bhante Gunaratana is mistaken. The term first appears in the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Doesn't Abhidhamma consider commentary?
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:06 am Doesn't Abhidhamma consider commentary?
By whom?

In the Theravāda all three baskets of the Tipiṭaka are classed as "root text" (mūlapālī), or as we loosely translate it, "canon".

Some academic scholars may refer to the books of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka as "commentaries", but in doing so they don't mean to imply that they belong with the Atthakathā texts. Rather, they are using the word "commentary" to describe the literary genre of the Abhidhamma's contents, just as they might describe, say, the Saccavibhangasutta as a "commentary" on the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta. But when "commentary" is being used in this way, the Theravāda's in-house terms would be niddesa or veyyakarana or vibhanga.

In the case of Bhante Gunaratana, even in his academic writings he sticks to the Theravāda's nomenclature, not that of academia.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:06 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:06 am Doesn't Abhidhamma consider commentary?
By whom?

In the Theravāda all three baskets of the Tipiṭaka are classed as "root text" (mūlapālī), or as we loosely translate it, "canon".

Some academic scholars may refer to the books of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka as "commentaries", but in doing so they don't mean to imply that they belong with the Atthakathā texts. Rather, they are using the word "commentary" to describe the literary genre of the Abhidhamma's contents, just as they might describe, say, the Saccavibhangasutta as a "commentary" on the Dhammacakkappavattanasutta. But when "commentary" is being used in this way, the Theravāda's in-house terms would be niddesa or veyyakarana or vibhanga.

In the case of Bhante Gunaratana, even in his academic writings he sticks to the Theravāda's nomenclature, not that of academia.
I hope someone close to Bhante G will clarify this for us. By the way, Bhante G made a grave mistake in his Ph.D. theses as well.
I can't recall it. I think it is to do with meditation.
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:28 am
In the Pali commentaries [/color]these come to be called the four immaterial jhanas (arupajhana), the four preceding states being renamed for the sake of clarity, the four fine-material jhanas (rupajhana). Often the two sets are joined together under the collective title of the eight jhanas or the eight attainments (atthasamapattiyo).
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el351.html
Thank you SarathW
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:49 am Rūpajjhānas are the commentaries' term for what in the Suttas are simply called jhānas.

I don't think the term is found in the Suttas.
Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. What would you regard "form" to refer to below?
Furthermore, going totally beyond perceptions of form (rūpasaññānaṁ), with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, he entered and remained in the dimension of infinite space.
My guess is rūpasaññānaṁ is perceptions related to form, which refers to bodily based feelings.

Thank you
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SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

My guess is rūpasaññānaṁ is perceptions related to form, which refers to bodily based feelings.
My guess is at this stage the meditator is going beyond Rupa (Pathavi, Apo, Tejo, Vayo) sorry for my Pali.
The common ground for Rupa is space.
This is what I expected to discuss in the following topic.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=39796
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:18 am Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. What would you regard "form" to refer to below?

Furthermore, going totally beyond perceptions of form (rūpasaññānaṁ), with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, he entered and remained in the dimension of infinite space.

My guess is rūpasaññānaṁ is perceptions related to form, which refers to bodily based feelings.
I understand saññā here to be the perception that was present in the fourth rūpajjhāna, which was of the nimitta.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:30 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:18 am Thank you Venerable Dhammanando. What would you regard "form" to refer to below?

Furthermore, going totally beyond perceptions of form (rūpasaññānaṁ), with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, he entered and remained in the dimension of infinite space.

My guess is rūpasaññānaṁ is perceptions related to form, which refers to bodily based feelings.
I understand saññā here to be the perception that was present in the fourth rūpajjhāna, which was of the nimitta.
Bhante in your opinion the nimitta arising is the same for Pathavi, Apo, Tejo and Vayou Kasina?
It appears that the Nimitta is the common base for all Kasina or perhaps all Samatha meditation objects.
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:39 pm Bhante in your opinion the nimitta arising is the same for Pathavi, Apo, Tejo and Vayou Kasina?
No. Each kasina gives rise to its own distinctive nimitta.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:39 pmIt appears that the Nimitta is the common base for all Kasina or perhaps all Samatha meditation objects.
All samatha-bhāvanā entails the use of a preparatory sign. But when the meditator starts to make progress the details concerning nimittas will vary from one meditation subject to another; e.g., some subjects will give rise to a counterpart sign, but others to only a learning sign.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
SarathW
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:23 pm
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:39 pm Bhante in your opinion the nimitta arising is the same for Pathavi, Apo, Tejo and Vayou Kasina?
No. Each kasina gives rise to its own distinctive nimitta.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:39 pmIt appears that the Nimitta is the common base for all Kasina or perhaps all Samatha meditation objects.
All samatha-bhāvanā entails the use of a preparatory sign. But when the meditator starts to make progress the details concerning nimittas will vary from one meditation subject to another; e.g., some subjects will give rise to a counterpart sign, but others to only a learning sign.
Thank you Bhante.
Even this may be off-topic, could you give some examples for a preparatory sign, counterpart sign, and learning sign?
I have read this in books but not sure what they exactly mean,
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Re: Where is the term "rupa jhana" found in the suttas?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:05 am Even this may be off-topic, could you give some examples for a preparatory sign, counterpart sign, and learning sign?
I have read this in books but not sure what they exactly mean,
Last week I gave you a link for the English translation of the Visuddhimagga. The nature of the nimitta for each of the forty meditation subjects is described in it. This is way off topic in the Early Buddhism forum.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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