Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Bundokji
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Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

The early Buddhist discourses begin with the standard introduction "Thus have i heard". Even though i do not know pali at all, when i look at "Evaṃ me suttaṃ", the meaning of the suttas seem inseparable from the oral tradition. I do not know when the act of writing the suttas began, but i am interested in reflections on the effects of writing the suttas on the authenticity of the early teachings.

Thank you :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

Interesting reflections by Plato on the invention of writing:
And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks.

What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only the semblance of wisdom, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much while for the most part they know nothing. And as men filled not with wisdom but with the conceit of wisdom they will be a burden to their fellows.
Socrates goes on to compare a written text to a painting:
You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. The painter’s products stand before us as though they were alive. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words. They seem to talk to you as though they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say from a desire to be instructed they go on telling just the same thing forever.
https://fs.blog/2013/02/an-old-argument ... t-writing/
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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frank k
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by frank k »

Bundokji wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 7:46 pm "Evaṃ me suttaṃ",
it's sutam, not suttam.
sutam is releated to sota (ear) having heard (sutva).
typical usage: sotam sadda sutva (with the ear, sounds I heard).

A very interesting thing about the word sutva and related words like sutam, in relation to the oral tradition.
Sometimes translators render sutva as "heard", other times "learned."

It's because in an oral tradition, the functions of hearing and learning are inseparable, along with memorizing, reciting, vitakka and vicara (verbal thinking and evaluation of the material you heard and learned).
Without vitakka and vicara (as verbal thinking), the oral tradition wouldn't work. It would be like dumb birds with great memory who can mimic and recall all kinds of speech and music, but have no idea what they're parroting.

Similarly, Ajahn Brahma and B. Sujato's vitakka and vicara in first jhana of just placing the mind with no verbal thinking, destroys the oral tradition and reduces jhana and meditation to dumb birds just mimicking sounds.
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Zom
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Zom »

Everything you need to know about authenticity -- https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... ticity.pdf 8-)
Bundokji
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

frank k wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:11 pm it's sutam, not suttam.
sutam is releated to sota (ear) having heard (sutva).
typical usage: sotam sadda sutva (with the ear, sounds I heard).

A very interesting thing about the word sutva and related words like sutam, in relation to the oral tradition.
Sometimes translators render sutva as "heard", other times "learned."

It's because in an oral tradition, the functions of hearing and learning are inseparable, along with memorizing, reciting, vitakka and vicara (verbal thinking and evaluation of the material you heard and learned).
Without vitakka and vicara (as verbal thinking), the oral tradition wouldn't work. It would be like dumb birds with great memory who can mimic and recall all kinds of speech and music, but have no idea what they're parroting.

Similarly, Ajahn Brahma and B. Sujato's vitakka and vicara in first jhana of just placing the mind with no verbal thinking, destroys the oral tradition and reduces jhana and meditation to dumb birds just mimicking sounds.
Thank you for your reflections. :anjali:

I know that comparative religions and history are not highly valued in terms of knowledge, but the oral tradition usually precedes the writing down of scriptures, and the writing down of scriptures, as an attempt to preserve, can indicate periods of historical turmoil and the beginning of corruption and decay. The oral tradition after writing down the scriptures is therefore never the same. I find it plausible that the act of memorizing was not corrupted by serving narrow self interests and was less prone to forgetting hence memorizing was akin to reciting with minimal mental effort. Turmoil and narrow self interests are the beginning of doubt, at least from a historical point of view.

The endless debates and arguments amongst modern people on whether the scriptures are the exact words of the Buddha or not can indicate how the act of preserving (through writing down) came with its own problems. The endless interpretations of written texts sheds doubts on the authenticity of oral tradition. It is a kind of slippery slope as it seems to me. I am wondering how all of this affected the function of our memory as we came to know it, even if we take the authenticity of the scripture and our ability to translate for granted, we tend to doubt our ability to understand the original meaning of the texts.

The spiritual life begins with encountering the wise, and the good disciple is the one who lends ear. There are theories that those who learn the teachings are promised in previous lives, and are a part of a historical linage that cannot be known through a linear/binary view of time.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

Zom wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:15 pm Everything you need to know about authenticity -- https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... ticity.pdf 8-)
Thank you :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sphairos
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by sphairos »

There is vast scholarly literature on this topic. Are you interested?
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waryoffolly
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by waryoffolly »

sphairos wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:47 pm There is vast scholarly literature on this topic. Are you interested?
Please share a few scholarly works on this topic. I am interested.
Bundokji
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:47 pm There is vast scholarly literature on this topic. Are you interested?
I don't mind. Please do share if you have any.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Zom
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Zom »

The endless interpretations of written texts sheds doubts on the authenticity of oral tradition.
Not really. It sheds doubts on so called "Commentaries" and all that kind of later works. It seems like ancient monks lost the right explanation of certain Dhamma aspects very soon after Buddha's demise. However that was orally transmitted (that is, suttas) stood the test of time quite good.
thomaslaw
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by thomaslaw »

It seems the extant early Buddhist texts are not entirely based on oral tradition. The texts are also artificial creation in both structure and content after being written down, or during writing process.
waryoffolly
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by waryoffolly »

thomaslaw wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 1:30 am It seems the extant early Buddhist texts are not entirely based on oral tradition. The texts are also artificial creation in both structure and content after being written down, or during writing process.
Can you give more detail about why you believe this?
thomaslaw
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by thomaslaw »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:34 am
thomaslaw wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 1:30 am It seems the extant early Buddhist texts are not entirely based on oral tradition. The texts are also artificial creation in both structure and content after being written down, or during writing process.
Can you give more detail about why you believe this?
Are you able to read "Chinese" early Buddhist texts, to compare with their "Pali" counterparts? If not, you may try to read some works relevant to a comparative study of any Pali and Chinese versions of early Buddhist texts. The following book by Choong Mun-keat may be useful:
The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism: A Comparative Study Based on the Sūtrāṅga portion of the Pāli Saṃyutta-Nikāya and the Chinese Saṃyuktāgama (Series: Beitrage zur Indologie Band 32; Harrassowitz Verlag, Wiesbaden, 2000). You may check online websites for this book or other relevant information.
Srilankaputra
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Srilankaputra »

Having some meaning and understanding in their heart, an Enlightened being will express it through language. Hearing or reading these words meaning arises in the listener's or readers heart. Definitely more information and meaning can be expressed through the verbal form. Even tone of voice, emphasis of words etc carry meaning.

Personally, assuming that I got the intended meaning correct, I try to seek for authenticity within. In my own experience. Nature of reality does not change from person to person or from generation to generation. At least I assume so.

I think it's no secret that in the Sutta Pitaka. there are sayings attributed to

The Blessed One (Bhudda bhasita)
Disciples (Savaka bhasita)
Devas/Brahmas (Deva bhasita)
Non Buddhist Sages (Isi Bhasita)

I still don't understand what the scholars mean by Authenticity. May be its to find those teaching that can be reasonably attributed to the Blessed One only.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Dhammanando
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Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Dhammanando »

Bundokji wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:56 pm
sphairos wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 7:47 pm There is vast scholarly literature on this topic. Are you interested?
I don't mind. Please do share if you have any.
If you've not already encountered him, a good place to start would be with Walter Ong, especially his Orality and Literacy (1982) and An Ong Reader (2002).
Walter Jackson Ong SJ (November 30, 1912 – August 12, 2003) was an American Jesuit priest, professor of English literature, cultural and religious historian, and philosopher. His major interest was in exploring how the transition from orality to literacy influenced culture and changed human consciousness. In 1978 he served as elected president of the Modern Language Association.

[...]

A major concern of Ong's works is the impact that the shift from orality to literacy has had on culture and education. Writing is a technology like other technologies (fire, the steam engine, etc.) that, when introduced to a "primary oral culture" (which has never known writing) has extremely wide-ranging impacts in all areas of life. These include culture, economics, politics, art, and more. Furthermore, even a small amount of education in writing transforms people's mentality from the holistic immersion of orality to interiorization and individuation.

Many of the effects of the introduction of the technology of writing are related to the fact that oral cultures require strategies of preserving information in the absence of writing. These include, for example, a reliance on proverbs or condensed wisdom for making decisions, epic poetry, and stylized culture heroes (wise Nestor, crafty Odysseus). Writing makes these features no longer necessary, and introduces new strategies of remembering cultural material, which itself now changes.

Because cultures at any given time vary along a continuum between full orality and full literacy, Ong distinguishes between primary oral cultures (which have never known writing), cultures with craft literacy (such as scribes), and cultures in a transition phase from orality to literacy, in which some people know of writing but are illiterate - these cultures have "residual orality".
https://archive.org/details/OngWalterOr ... y/mode/2up

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_J._Ong

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orality
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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