Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
sphairos
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Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by sphairos »

Bundokji wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:06 pm
Plato spoke about Atlantis, which was isolated and technologically advanced, and which the inhabitants did not use concepts, but psychic powers to communicate. The story of Atlantis influenced renaissance writers such as Francis Bacon who formulated the scientific method in its modern form.
Actually, you won't find that in Plato. Plato doesn't describe them as technologically advanced or psychics etc. He says they were a powerful ancient people who worshipped Poseidon and had strange social structure and religious customs. Actually Ancient Athenians defeated them 10 000 years ago. Ancient Athenians weren't particularly different from Plato's time Athenians.

All those stories about technology etc. are later embellishments.

Very funny what you say about Muslims and Chinese :) Why do you say it?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:46 pm Actually, you won't find that in Plato. Plato doesn't describe them as technologically advanced or psychics etc. He says they were a powerful ancient people who worshipped Poseidon and had strange social structure and religious customs. Actually Ancient Athenians defeated them 10 000 years ago. Ancient Athenians weren't particularly different from Plato's time Athenians.
Atlantis was described as Island and ancient Athenians were described as as belonging to the known world. The myth serves to promote Plato's utopian republic who also spoke of the noble lie, while in Buddhism Nibbana is described as an Island and the Buddha taught noble truths, A feature of the utopian vision is that it always risks dystopia to reach utopia.
All those stories about technology etc. are later embellishments.

Very funny what you say about Muslims and Chinese :) Why do you say it?
A feature of the empirical world is that it can have endless parallel worlds of which only one can be considered true or real. These stories are of little utility in our day to day life, but they can be interesting and funny nonetheless as you said.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sphairos
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:37 am
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by sphairos »

Bundokji wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:21 pm Atlantis was described as Island and ancient Athenians were described as as belonging to the known world. The myth serves to promote Plato's utopian republic who also spoke of the noble lie, while in Buddhism Nibbana is described as an Island and the Buddha taught noble truths, A feature of the utopian vision is that it always risks dystopia to reach utopia.
In Plato Ancient Athens and Athenians (basically, Greeks) were an "utopia", not Atlantis.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 5:37 pm In Plato Ancient Athens and Athenians (basically, Greeks) were an "utopia", not Atlantis.
Yes. Western philosophy is an extension of Greek philosophy. Renaissance is often associated with the rediscovery of Greek philosophy especially Plato and Aristotle. Many trace modern governance and the relationship between state and religion back to Plato. On the other hand, the Buddha spoke of a war between Asuras and Devas of which the devas won but the asuras somehow continued with their trickery after being defeated.

On the parallels between technology and psychic powers, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo has interesting reflections:
I'm going to talk about knowledge — the highest level of knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Ordinary knowledge is adulterated with a lot of defilements and mental fermentations, and so it's called hethima-vijja, lower knowledge. Lower knowledge is something everyone has, Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike: the various branches of worldly knowledge that people study from textbooks so as to run their societies and administer their nations. And then there are the special branches of knowledge, the scientific ways of thinking that people use to invent all sorts of amazing contraptions for the human race — things like clairvoyance (television), clairaudience (telephones), and powers of levitation (airplanes). They've gotten to the point where these contraptions can work in place of people. During the last war, for instance, I heard that they were able to drop bombs on other countries without sending people along with them. With a push of a button they could tell the missile where to go, what to do, and when it had finished the job to their satisfaction, have it come back home. This is what's called progress in worldly knowledge — or lokiya vijja. This kind of knowledge is common all over the world, and falls into the two sorts that I've mentioned: the sort that comes from studying books (sutamaya-pañña), and the sort that comes from thinking things through, or cintamaya-pañña.

This second kind of knowledge arises within the mind itself. People with a lot of education in the theoretical sciences work with their thinking. They think to the point where an idea appears as a picture in the mind, like an uggaha-nimitta (spontaneous image). When the picture appears in the mind, they may sketch it down on paper, and then experiment with physical objects to see if it works. If it doesn't work, they make adjustments, creating a new idea from their old idea — adjusting it a bit here, expanding it a bit there — keeping at it until they find what works in line with their aims.

If we think about this on a shallow level, it's really amazing. But if we think a little bit deeper, it's not so amazing at all. They take their starting point with something really simple: for example, how to make a small person large, or a large person small — something really, really simple. Then they take a mirror and bend it in, so that a tall person will turn into a small person. They bend it out, so that a small person will become tall. That's all to begin with. Then they keep thinking along these lines until they can take a faraway object and make it appear up close. The people who get these things started tend to be military strategists. They're the ones who usually get these ideas first. Another important branch of science is medicine. People in both these branches have to think deeper than people in general.

For example, people in ships out at sea got it into their heads that they'd like to see the ships approaching them from a distance. "How can we see them? How can we get their image to appear in our ship?" They worked on this idea until they succeeded. First they started out really simple-minded, just like us. Simple-minded in what way? They thought like a mirror, that's all, nothing special. They put a mirror up high on a mast and then had a series of mirrors pick up the image in the first mirror and send it on down into the ship. They didn't have to look in the first mirror. They could look at a little tiny mirror down in the ship and see ships approaching from far away. That's all they used in the beginning. After a while they made a single mirror in waves. When an image hit the top wave, the next wave picked it up and sent it on down the waves of the mirror into the ship. They kept thinking about this until now, no more: They have radar, a tiny little box that doesn't use a series of mirrors, and doesn't use a mirror in waves, but can still pull the image of a faraway ship and make it appear in your ship. This is how knowledge develops to a high level in the sciences.

As for medicine, doctors these days are researching into how they can keep people from dying. Lots of people are doing the research, but no one has found the solution. No matter how much research they do, people are still dying. They haven't succeeded in making people live longer than their ordinary span. This is another branch of knowledge that comes from thinking, and not from textbooks.

And there's still another branch that's moving even further out, but how far they'll get is hard to say. These are the people who want to go and live on Mars. It must be really nice up there. But the chances of their succeeding are small. Why are they small? Because the people aren't really sincere. And why aren't they sincere? Because they're still unsure and uncertain. The idea isn't really clear in their heads. This uncertainty is what gets in the way of success.

So this is the second level of worldly knowledge, the level that comes from thinking and ideas, or cintamaya-pañña.

But in the final analysis, neither of these two levels of knowledge can take us beyond suffering and stress. They're the type of knowledge that creates bad kamma about 70 percent of the time. Only 30 percent of the time do they actually benefit the human race. Why only 30 percent? If another war gets started: total disaster. The kinds of knowledge that are really useful, that give convenience to human transportation and communication, are few and far between. For the most part, worldly knowledge is aimed at massive killing, at amassing power and influence. That's why it doesn't lead beyond suffering and stress, doesn't lead beyond birth, aging, illness, and death.

Take, for instance, the countries at present that are clever in building all kinds of weapons. They sell their weapons to other countries, and sometimes those other countries use the weapons to kill people in the countries that built them. There are countries that can't build their own weapons, yet they declare war on the countries who gave them military aid. That's about as far as the results of worldly knowledge can take you.

This is why the Buddha taught us a higher level of knowledge: Dhamma knowledge.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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