What I mean is that "ancient" doesn't automatically mean "correct". All early schools were equally ancient, but at times were very different in doctrine interpretation. Being old is a factor for authenticity among many.Are they? The last I checked those were around 1st century B.C, whereas the commentaries appear to be older than that.
Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Ancient has a better chance of getting you in the right direction as to what the Buddha taught, moving closer towards rather than further away. That is, of course, not the end of the matter. In terms of the commentaries, which are ancient, they need to be checked against the foundational texts. When we consider the commentaries so far I do not see much which drastically deviates from the foundational texts. When we look to the doctrines of Sarvāstivāda et al. we do. Interestingly, I just read this over at SuttaCentral:Zom wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 10:01 pmWhat I mean is that "ancient" doesn't automatically mean "correct". All early schools were equally ancient, but at times were very different in doctrine interpretation. Being old is a factor for authenticity among many.Are they? The last I checked those were around 1st century B.C, whereas the commentaries appear to be older than that.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... ords/11011Despite these humble beginnings—or more likely, because of them—in the Theravada, the patisambhidas came to assume a critical importance. If you look at the Dipavamsa’s account of the first schism (between the Theravada and the Mahasanghika) the chief complaint about the Mahasanghikas was their sloppiness in textual redaction. They mixed up the nouns and verbs, everything was unclear, they rejected some texts and added others. All this is, to be fair, an accurate depiction of the Mahasanghika texts, at least from a Pali perspective. The result of this was that the Theravada—specifically, the Mahavihara in Anuradhapura, rather than the broader Sthaviras of the mainland—defined itself as the school of textual precision.
On the whole I think we are on safe ground with Theravāda and the commentaries.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
I meant that what happens in the video is not how the texts were transmitted, so it is irrelevant to this discussion.Bundokji wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 8:22 pmAre you referring to the first council? It gives rise to interesting thoughts. From what i know, Arahanthood was a condition to join the council of which Ven. Ananda was the last to join. I do not know if Arahants need to correct each others mistakes by chanting together considering that their knowledge of the dhamma is flawless.
Mike
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
The text at this link should be kosher, though it only allows the book to be borrowed for an hour at a time, not downloaded.Bundokji wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 9:26 pm I encountered the following disclaimer when i tried to read the book shared by Bhante:
"All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced or utilized in any form or by any electronic, mechanical, or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including photocopying and recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publishers"
How to read or use the book online without breaking precepts? Do i need to use the technology of writing to get an approval from the publishers?
https://archive.org/details/oralityliteracyt00ongw
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Sorry i misunderstood what you meant. The video was not meant to demonstrate how the texts were transmitted, but the rationale behind the belief the commentaries present more accurate understand of what the Buddha taught due to its proximity to the historical Buddha in time.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
I'm sorry, but was not clear what you meant to convey. I thought you meant it to be a demonstration of the problems of oral transmission. My point is that oral transmission of texts was not done by the method in the video, it was done by groups, which gives much higher accuracy than one-to-one-to-one transmission.Bundokji wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:47 amSorry i misunderstood what you meant. The video was not meant to demonstrate how the texts were transmitted, but the rationale behind the belief the commentaries present more accurate understand of what the Buddha taught due to its proximity to the historical Buddha in time.
Perhaps you should simply explain your view.
Mike
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
What i am trying to convey is that if you accept the notion that the introduction of writing did not replace oral tradition, but changed it through linking words to forms/charachters, then you would see how this shaped our modern understanding of authenticity. The historical approach and writing cannot be separated. In Islam for instance, later generations of Hadith narrators/transmitters were scrutinized to help determine the accuracy of the Hadith. We have the following sciences emerging as a result of that:mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 6:21 am I'm sorry, but was not clear what you meant to convey. I thought you meant it to be a demonstration of the problems of oral transmission. My point is that oral transmission of texts was not done by the method in the video, it was done by groups, which gives much higher accuracy than one-to-one-to-one transmission.
Perhaps you should simply explain your view.
Mike
Even the notion that the collective understanding/memorizing would prevent/correct individual biases is the result of the same historical approach which became the basis of the current scientific approach through peer review.Criteria to be a ṣaḥīḥ hadith
To be 'ṣaḥīḥ ("sound") hadith, an isolated hadith (Mutawatir hadith were exempt from these tests) "must pass five tests":
"continuity of transmission";[28]
ʿadāla of transmitters, i.e. transmitters must be of good character;[1]
"accuracy (ḍabṭ) of the process of transmission, i.e. narrators must not be prone to carelessness or known to have poor memories";[1]
absence of "irregularities" (shadhūdh), i.e. hadith must not contradict a "more reliable source";[1]
"absence of corrupting defects(ʿilla qādiḥa), i.e. inaccuracies in reporting the actual chain of transmission."[1]
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
The disclaimer is still there. Reading the book is a form of utilizing it. It is strange how they include a disclaimer that makes it impossible to use the book.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 1:57 amThe text at this link should be kosher, though it only allows the book to be borrowed for an hour at a time, not downloaded.Bundokji wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 9:26 pm I encountered the following disclaimer when i tried to read the book shared by Bhante:
"All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reprinted or reproduced or utilized in any form or by any electronic, mechanical, or other means, now known or hereafter invented, including photocopying and recording, or in any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the publishers"
How to read or use the book online without breaking precepts? Do i need to use the technology of writing to get an approval from the publishers?
https://archive.org/details/oralityliteracyt00ongw
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
The two examples given by Analayo are ridiculously pointless and unavailing.
viewtopic.php?p=622646#p622646
Reading minds from afar — earing from afar, also.
Whatever.
- Secondly the rationale of the deer hunter is lame.
At the time, people didn't have guns. And I hardly see how bird or rabbit hunting, could be a popular and favorite occupation.
Size matters.
No need to go to India nowadays, to see how common are deers - like in the "deer parks", at the time of Buddha.
A mere inference does the rest.
Lame speculations indeed.
And wussy inductions, on top of them.
.
.
viewtopic.php?p=622646#p622646
- First, if Buddha is considered omniscient; then he would have known.Analayo wrote: The examples suggest that during the process of oral transmission a commentarial gloss, being itself probably part of a body of widely accepted popular interpretation, could become part of the discourse itself.
Reading minds from afar — earing from afar, also.
Whatever.
- Secondly the rationale of the deer hunter is lame.
At the time, people didn't have guns. And I hardly see how bird or rabbit hunting, could be a popular and favorite occupation.
Size matters.
No need to go to India nowadays, to see how common are deers - like in the "deer parks", at the time of Buddha.
A mere inference does the rest.
Lame speculations indeed.
And wussy inductions, on top of them.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
It's no different from the copyright notice that appears in books offered for loan in public libraries. As with the books in public libraries, those texts at Internet Archive that are not in the public domain are loaned to patrons one at a time under the first-sale doctrine, though in its controlled digital lending form.
The first-sale doctrine (also sometimes referred to as the "right of first sale" or the "first sale rule") is an American legal concept that limits the rights of an intellectual property owner to control resale of products embodying its intellectual property. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, giving, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Do you mean the moral and legal responsibility of getting a written permission from the publishers belongs to the administrators of the internet archives under the first sale rule, not the users of the internet archives?Dhammanando wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 11:40 amIt's no different from the copyright notice that appears in books offered for loan in public libraries. As with the books in public libraries, those texts at Internet Archive that are not in the public domain are loaned to patrons one at a time under the first-sale doctrine, though in its controlled digital lending form.
The first-sale doctrine (also sometimes referred to as the "right of first sale" or the "first sale rule") is an American legal concept that limits the rights of an intellectual property owner to control resale of products embodying its intellectual property. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, giving, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Ok, I'll be posting them here whenever I have some free time.
Here are a few important papers:
Steven Collins
NOTES ON SOME ORAL ASPECTS OF PALI LITERATURE
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24659521?seq=1
Ven. Anālayo
Oral Dimensions of Pāli Discourses:
Pericopes, other Mnemonic Techniques
and the Oral Performance Context
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... nsions.pdf
Alexander Wynne
THE ORAL TRANSMISSION
OF EARLY BUDDHIST LITERATURE
https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/201 ... 4jiabs.pdf
Lance Cousins
Pali oral literature
https://www.academia.edu/1417355/Pali_oral_literature
Mark Allon
The Oral Composition and Transmission of Early Buddhist Texts
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... 989-94.pdf
I think very important is the discussion of oral/aureal aspect of early Buddhist literature in S. Collins's article. Because it is simply impossible that such huge and intricate portions of text were processed purely orally -- there were needed at least some notes on the main points of the talk/speech.
Like T. Rhys-Davids wrote long ago:
I envisage the process of creation of some of the main early Buddhist texts was alike the "publishing" of the texts (dialogues and speeches) in Plato's Academy in Athens -- a public oral performance in front of the close students with either the whole text or the main points of it written down as memory aids.The Buddha, like other Indian teachers of his time, taught by conversation. A highly educated man (according to the education current at the time), speaking constantly to men of similar education, he followed the literary habit of his time by embodying his doctrines in set phrases, sūtras, on which he enlarged on different occasions in different ways. In the absence of books - for though writing was widely known, the lack of writing materials made any lengthy written books impossible(3) - such sūtras were the recognised form of preserving and communicating opinion. These particular ones were not in Sanskrit, but in the ordinary conversational idiom of the day, that is to say, in a sort of Pāli.
When the Buddha died these sayings were collected together by his disciples into the Four Great Nikāyas .
(3)Very probably memoranda were used. But the earliest records of any extent were the Asoka Edicts, and they had to be written on stone.
Dialogues of the Buddha 1899: xix.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
How true are your ways?
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
What Plato describes in your first quote is an attitude to the sacred knowledge in the Ancient world in general. In Plato's case, in Egypt.Bundokji wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 9:23 pm Interesting reflections by Plato on the invention of writing:Socrates goes on to compare a written text to a painting:And so it is that you by reason of your tender regard for the writing that is your offspring have declared the very opposite of its true effect. If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks.
What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only the semblance of wisdom, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much while for the most part they know nothing. And as men filled not with wisdom but with the conceit of wisdom they will be a burden to their fellows.https://fs.blog/2013/02/an-old-argument ... t-writing/You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. The painter’s products stand before us as though they were alive. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words. They seem to talk to you as though they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say from a desire to be instructed they go on telling just the same thing forever.
In India in orthodox Vedic/Brahmanic circles we had the same attitude:
http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/s ... ission.pdfThere was a time, I admit, when oral transmission was the only
possible way to preserve the Vedas. Whatever date one puts on the
introduction -- or reintroduction -- of script in India, at the time
when the oldest Vedic hymns were composed -- circa 1200 B.C.E. -- there
was no script on the subcontinent.
But, even after the Vedas could have been written down, there are
indications that this was not done nevertheless, because that would not
have been the right way of transmitting them from generation to
generation. The famous eighth century philosopher KumStrilabhatw says
that knowledge of the Veda is useless, if it has been acquired from
writing.13 And, according to a more effusive statement in the great epic,
the MahiibhZirata, those who commit the Veda to writing are condemned to
hell. 14
The idea that knowledge of the Veda is useless if it is acquired
from a book, is particularly significant. To understand its full import,
we must keep in mind that the sole purpose of the Vedic mantras is to be
recited, by a variety of priests, in the course of the numerous types of
yajks "sacrifices, rituals."15 More important, the mantras are not only
to be recited; they are to be recited absolutely correctly. Not only
should the words or the order of words not be changed; even a single
syllable wrongly pronounced or a single accent wrongly placed might
bring ruin on the sacrificer and make his sacrifice futile. 16
Correct pronunciation of the Vedic wntras, of course, cannot be
acquired from books; it can be acquired solely through oral instruction.
As a result, the brahrnans have developed a variety of detailed
mnemotechnic devices, all of which were designed to insure correct
pronunciation and avoid corruption of the texts.17 The mantras are taught
not only as they occur in the Vedic samhitiis, but also according to the
padapiitha, i.e. word by word without the euphonic combinations (sawhi).
And, to make Vedic recitation absolutely flawless, the mantras are
taught according to the progressive recitation (kramapiithu), again with
eight different and gradually more complex word combinations: 1-2, 2-3,
3-4, etc.; 1-2, 1-2-3, 2-3, 2-3-4; etc. 18
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/vi ... 8-0184.xml
https://indianexpress.com/article/paren ... y-5743767/
But hardly it was the case with Buddhism. Buddhism was and is an urban, cities' and long trade-networks' dynamic tradition (associated with the so called "second urbanisation period" in Ancient India), in which literacy was presupposed for the agents. The Brahmanic/Vedic tradition was an agricultural, slow one, where most people were illiterate...
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
How true are your ways?
Re: Early Buddhism and the oral tradition
Plato spoke about Atlantis, which was isolated and technologically advanced, and which the inhabitants did not use concepts, but psychic powers to communicate. The story of Atlantis influenced renaissance writers such as Francis Bacon who formulated the scientific method in its modern form. The parallels between modern science and psychic powers are interesting as if modern science is trying to catch up with ancient knowledge, but without having the necessary moral compass. The rise of AI technology is yet another episode in this vicious circle.sphairos wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:19 pm What Plato describes in your first quote is an attitude to the sacred knowledge in the Ancient world in general. In Plato's case, in Egypt.
In India in orthodox Vedic/Brahmanic circles we had the same attitude:
http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/s ... ission.pdfThere was a time, I admit, when oral transmission was the only
possible way to preserve the Vedas. Whatever date one puts on the
introduction -- or reintroduction -- of script in India, at the time
when the oldest Vedic hymns were composed -- circa 1200 B.C.E. -- there
was no script on the subcontinent.
But, even after the Vedas could have been written down, there are
indications that this was not done nevertheless, because that would not
have been the right way of transmitting them from generation to
generation. The famous eighth century philosopher KumStrilabhatw says
that knowledge of the Veda is useless, if it has been acquired from
writing.13 And, according to a more effusive statement in the great epic,
the MahiibhZirata, those who commit the Veda to writing are condemned to
hell. 14
The idea that knowledge of the Veda is useless if it is acquired
from a book, is particularly significant. To understand its full import,
we must keep in mind that the sole purpose of the Vedic mantras is to be
recited, by a variety of priests, in the course of the numerous types of
yajks "sacrifices, rituals."15 More important, the mantras are not only
to be recited; they are to be recited absolutely correctly. Not only
should the words or the order of words not be changed; even a single
syllable wrongly pronounced or a single accent wrongly placed might
bring ruin on the sacrificer and make his sacrifice futile. 16
Correct pronunciation of the Vedic wntras, of course, cannot be
acquired from books; it can be acquired solely through oral instruction.
As a result, the brahrnans have developed a variety of detailed
mnemotechnic devices, all of which were designed to insure correct
pronunciation and avoid corruption of the texts.17 The mantras are taught
not only as they occur in the Vedic samhitiis, but also according to the
padapiitha, i.e. word by word without the euphonic combinations (sawhi).
And, to make Vedic recitation absolutely flawless, the mantras are
taught according to the progressive recitation (kramapiithu), again with
eight different and gradually more complex word combinations: 1-2, 2-3,
3-4, etc.; 1-2, 1-2-3, 2-3, 2-3-4; etc. 18
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/vi ... 8-0184.xml
https://indianexpress.com/article/paren ... y-5743767/
But hardly it was the case with Buddhism. Buddhism was and is an urban, cities' and long trade-networks' dynamic tradition (associated with the so called "second urbanisation period" in Ancient India), in which literacy was presupposed for the agents. The Brahmanic/Vedic tradition was an agricultural, slow one, where most people were illiterate...
In Islam, there are prophecies about judgement day (or the end of days). There are minor signs and major signs. The minor signs began not long after the passing away of prophet Muhammad (which has to do with the abandoning of oral tradition). The major signs is when a race (akin to modern Chinese) would reach the Middle East and drink from the sea of galilee in Israel. The Chinese influence already reached Iran.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.