SA 559 English Translation?

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waryoffolly
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SA 559 English Translation?

Post by waryoffolly »

I read earlier today a work that referenced Samyukta agama 559, and would like to read it. Does anyone know of an english translation to it?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Coëmgenu »

As usual, this is very rough.
如是我聞:
Thus have I heard:

一時,佛住波羅利弗妬路國,尊者阿難及尊者迦摩亦在波羅利弗妬路雞林精舍。
At one time, the Buddha dwelt in the land of Pāṭaliputra. Āyuṣmat [hereafter "Venerable"] Ānanda and Venerable Kāmabhū were also in Pāṭaliputra at Kurkuṭārāma.

時,尊者迦摩詣尊者阿難所,共相問訊慰勞已,於一面坐。語尊者阿難:
At that time, Venerable Kāmabhū went to where Ven. Ānanda was. After they greeted each other, they sat down together. He said to Ven. Ānanda:

「奇哉!尊者阿難!有眼有色、有耳有聲、有鼻有香、有舌有味、有身有觸、有意有法,而有比丘有是等法,能不覺知。
"It is amazing, Ven. Ānanda, that there are the eyes and sights, the ears and sounds, the nose and fragrances, the tongue and tastes, the body and tangibles, and the mind and dharmas; and that there are monks who have these many dharmas, yet are unaware (of them).

云何?尊者阿難!彼比丘為有想不覺知,為無想故不覺知?」
How can this be? Ven. Ānanda, is it that the monk has perceptions, yet is unaware; or is it that he has no perceptions and is unaware?"

尊者阿難語迦摩比丘言: 「有想者亦不覺知,況復無想。」
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "There is a perceiver, but he is unaware. Furthermore, there is (also) non-perception."

復問尊者阿難:「何等為有想於有而不覺知?」
In reply, he asked Ven. Ānanda: "How can there be perception while (someone is) also unaware?"

尊者阿難語迦摩比丘言:「若比丘離欲、惡不善法,有覺有觀,離生喜樂,初禪具足住。
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "Suppose a monk forsakes desire, wickedness, and unskillful dharmas. With ideation and analysis, with rapture and bliss born of seclusion, in possession of the first dhyāna he dwells.

如是有想比丘有法而不覺知。如是第二、第三、第四禪,空入處、識入處、無所有入處具足住。
Like this, there are perceptions: the monk has dharmas, yet he is unaware (of them). Like this, in the second, the third, the fourth dhyāna, the sphere of endless space, the sphere of endless mind, and the sphere of endless nothing, in possession of those he dwells.

如是有想比丘有法而不覺知。云何無想有法而不覺知?
Like this, there are perceptions: the monk has dharmas, yet he is unaware (of them). How is he impercipient, having dharmas yet not being aware (of them)?

如是比丘一切想不憶念,無想心三昧身作證具足住,是名比丘無想於有法而不覺知。」
Like this, a monk is not percipient of any perceptions, and in possession of the attainment of the asaṁjña samādhi he dwells. He is called a monk impercipient who has dharmas yet is unaware (of them).

尊者迦摩比丘復問尊者阿難:「若比丘無想心三昧,不涌不沒,解脫已住,住已解脫,世尊說此是何果、何功德?」
Ven. Kāmabhū the monk replied to Ven. Ānanda, asking: "Suppose a monk in the asaṁjña samādhi does not curve towards and does not curve away? (Suppose that) Liberated, he dwells; and (suppose) that in dwelling, he is liberated. What did the Bhagavān say is the result of this? What does it achieve?"

尊者阿難語迦摩比丘言:「若比丘無想 心三昧,不涌不沒,解脫已住,住已解脫,世尊說此是智果、智功德。」
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "Suppose a monk in the asaṁjña samādhi does not curve towards and does not curve away. (Suppose that) Liberated, he dwells; and (suppose) that in dwelling, he is liberated. The Bhagavān says that this results in wisdom and that this achieves wisdom."

時,二正士共論議 已,歡喜隨喜,各從坐起去。
At that time, after the two masters discussed together, they rejoiced, and both got up from their seats and left.
The most bizarre point of difference I see is that "the mind and dharmas" (有意有法) are included in the stuff the monk is unaware of in all four dhyānas and the four formless attainments. Then, the text also specifies asaṁjña samādhi (無想心三昧), which is the "unconscious(ness) samādhi." By its own description, all dhyānas and formless attainments are similarly "unconscious/impercipient," so why bother listing the asaṁjñaka at all? The text seems to be internally contradictory.

Another point, āsaṁjñika meditation and the corresponding bhāva in Sarvāstivāda are always, AFAIK, discouraged, because they merely lead to a pointless godly existence followed by a return to the kāmadhātu. This sūtra seems to laud asaṁjñāsamāpatti. Context:
What is non-consciousness (āsaṃjñika)?

Non-consciousness is that which, among the Nonconscious Ones, arrests the mind and its mental states. Among the beings who take birth among the Non-Conscious Ones, i.e., the non-conscious gods, there is a dharma that arrests the mind and its mental states, and which is called "non-consciousness." By this dharma, the mind and future dharmas are, for a certain time, hindered from being produced and do not have the power to arise. This dharma is similar to what arrests the water of a river, that is, (similar) to a dike.

This dharma is exclusively retribution. It is exclusively the retribution of non-conscious absorption (asaṃjñāsamāpatti).

Where do these non-conscious gods reside?

They live in bṛhatphalā. In the heaven of the bṛhatphalās there is a raised place which is the dwelling of the Non-Conscious Ones, in the same way as the dhyānāntarikā, the dwelling of the Mahābrahmā gods, is raised within the heaven of the Brahmapurohitas.

Are the Non-Conscious Ones called this because they are always non-conscious, or are they sometimes conscious?

They are conscious at birth and at death; they are called non-conscious because their consciousness is suspended for a very long time. When, after this long time, they produce a consciousness again, they die. As it says in the Sutra "When they produce consciousness again, they die, like a person awakening after sleep." Dying in the non-conscious heaven, they are necessarily reborn in the Kāmadhātu and nowhere else. (1) In fact, the force of asaṃjñāsamāpatti, by which these beings are born among the Non-Conscious Ones, is exhausted; they have not been in a position to practice asaṃjñāsamāpatti: hence they die, as arrows fall to the ground when their impetus is spent. (2) On the other hand, beings who are reborn among the Non-Conscious Ones necessarily possess an action "retributive in kāmadhātu" and "retributive in the second existence."
(Abhidharmakośakārikā, translation from Leo Prüden)

What Prüden is translating as "Nonconscious Ones" is "asaññasattā" in Pāli.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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nirodh27
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by nirodh27 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:14 am
Thank you for your effort, I've found another translation that might or might not help you to improve yours.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/sa ... sutra/3977
The most bizarre point of difference I see is that "the mind and dharmas" (有意有法) are included in the stuff the monk is unaware of in all four dhyānas and the four formless attainments. Then, the text also specifies asaṁjña samādhi (無想心三昧), which is the "unconscious(ness) samādhi." By its own description, all dhyānas and formless attainments are similarly "unconscious/impercipient," so why bother listing the asaṁjñaka at all? The text seems to be internally contradictory.
This is a logical impossibility since if you don't have mind and mind-objects:
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "Suppose a monk forsakes desire, wickedness, and unskillful dharmas. With ideation and analysis, with rapture and bliss born of seclusion, in possession of the first dhyāna he dwells.
even this first Jhana in this sutta is not possible. My impression (only an impression) is that MA are less concerned about jhana and body than the Nikayas, but you can't cut off mind since the first jhana istruction lose any sense whatsoever. Not to speak of the presentation of First Jhana in the rest of the agamas, in which again you also consistently find thought and analysis (Vitakka&Vicara) and so there's perception. A sort of "second first Jhana" (why teached only from Ananda btw?) without perception and never mentioned by the Buddha is unlikely ever being taught in the early days. To me, this sutta is speaking about an high meditative attainment, beyond the arupas and near to nirodha. Which seems confirmed by his "parallel" in the Nikayas. The list from first jhana that is without perception and onwards can safely be ignored, working on the standard first jhana is more than enough, and good luck for anyone that will try to extrapolate an actual practice from this sutta.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:45 am [The list from first jhana that is without perception and onwards can safely be ignored, working on the standard first jhana is more than enough, and good luck for anyone that will try to extrapolate an actual practice from this sutta.
According to this sutra, and implied by others, the standard Jhana is without the 5 senses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nirodh27
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by nirodh27 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:02 am
nirodh27 wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:45 am [The list from first jhana that is without perception and onwards can safely be ignored, working on the standard first jhana is more than enough, and good luck for anyone that will try to extrapolate an actual practice from this sutta.
According to this sutra, and implied by others, the standard Jhana is without the 5 senses.
Hi Ceisiwr,

According to this sutta it seems to me that this Jhana is without the six senses even if the description is the same with the one that has at the very least the mind. I think that should not be automatically ported over the other jhana's description from the Buddha.

For the implied, do you have an argument? Because if I read the agamas I don't see that implied at all. I have zero attachment from one side or the other this issue, since I think the work on the drawbacks can be made in both cases and actually my mind tends naturally to ignore the body when I practice and restlessness is calmed.

Nonethless we have:

- The same bodily similes of the jhanas in the Nikayas.
Again, a monk contemplates the body as body. A monk completely
drenches and pervades his body from within with rapture and pleasure born
of seclusion [experienced in the first absorption], so that there is no part [of
his body] that is not pervaded by rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.225
It is just as a bath attendant, having filled a vessel with bathing powder,
might mix it with water and knead it so that no part of [the powder] is not
completely drenched and pervaded with water. In the same way, a monk
completely drenches and pervades his body from within with rapture and
pleasure born of seclusion, so that there is no part [of his body] that is not
pervaded by rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.
In this way a monk contemplates the body as body internally [or] he
contemplates the body as body externally. He sets up mindfulness in the
body and is endowed with knowledge, vision, understanding, and pene-
tration. This is [how] a monk contemplates the body as body.
There's nothing in the standard formula that implies that:
Again, the noble disciple, separated from desires, separated from
evil and unwholesome states, with initial and sustained application of
the mind, with joy and happiness born of separation, dwells having
attained the first absorption. At this time the noble disciple is reckoned
as one whose new leaves have appeared, like the appearing of the new
leaves on the coral tree of the thirty-three gods.
The similes that I've learned from you about going in clear waters suggests both physical and mental pleasure.

Even the simile of the feeling of Jhanas is bodily, linked to feeling of beds and seats.
Sāriputta, just as kings and senior ministers have good beds and
seats, very wide and high; so, Sāriputta, monks and nuns have the four
absorptions as their beds and seats. If, Sāriputta, monks and nuns are
endowed with the four absorptions as their beds and seats, then they
are able to abandon evil and practice what is wholesome.
There's also the thorn simile repeated many times:
It is well, it is well that the senior elders, the great disciples, should speak
like this: “Noise is a thorn to absorption. The World-honored One has
declared that noise is a thorn to absorption.” Why is that? I do indeed
speak like this. [Noise is indeed] a thorn to absorption.
that to me is clearly an indication that one, even if of course is not concentrated on hearing sounds, can still hear in first jhana (since a thorn is something that it is annoyance, a thorn in the feet still allows you to walk, but is pesky, bothersome) while it simply could not be a thorn if you cannot hear sound. The other examples of thorns all indicate this usage, something troublesome and an annoiance that you have to remove, in the case of sound by going somewhere else:
“Noise is a thorn to absorption (jhana). The World-honored One has
declared that noise is a thorn to absorption. Let us instead go to Gosiṅga
Grove. Staying there we will not be disturbed, and will stay secluded and
alone to sit in meditation.”
or tolerate. This is also paired well with the samma-samadhi sutta, in which to have samma samadhi one have to be tolerant of a certain dose of sound, but I don't know if a parallel is present:
See what Sammā·samādhi
Sutta (AN5.113) says:
“Bhikkhus, possessed of five things a bhikkhu is unable to abide engaging in proper
composure (sammā·samādhiṁ upasampajja viharituṁ).34 What five? Here, a
bhikkhu is intolerant of [visual] forms, intolerant of sounds, intolerant of odours,
intolerant of tastes, intolerant of physical sensations. Possessed with these five
things a bhikkhu is unable to abide engaging in proper composure.”
“Bhikkhus, possessed of five things a bhikkhu is able to abide engaging in proper
composure. What five? Here, a bhikkhu is tolerant of [visual] forms, tolerant of
sounds, tolerant of odours, tolerant of tastes, tolerant of physical sensations.
Possessed with these five things a bhikkhu is able to abide engaging in proper
composure.”
For example also ignorance is a thorn in MA, you have the option/the unfortunate obliged condition to tolerate it (just like us) or remove it (just like the Buddha). Thoughs are a thorn in second jhana, you have to tolerate them since they are unwelcomed given the second jhana nature or remove them by renewing your intention of noble silence and composure.

I could pass all the day to make a stronger argument, but since I don't know even where you will start with your argument, you should give me at least some hints, you can even point me to some of your older posts if you don't want to rewrite the same old arguments.
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by frank k »

waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:19 am I read earlier today a work that referenced Samyukta agama 559, and would like to read it. Does anyone know of an english translation to it?
not a translation, but illuminating comments on it from Dr. Chu.

excerpt:
https://lucid24.org/an/an09/an09-0037/t ... index.html

AN 9.37 parallels, SA 557-559
SA 557 is listed on Suttacentral as a partial parallel to AN 9.37. When one compares the Pali AN 9.37 to SA 559, there seems to be a contradiction. Dr. Chu’s commentary clears up the seeming contradiction in detail, but the quick answer is, the Agama sutra is talking about a very specific Animitta Samādhi, while the Pali AN 9.37 is talking about a samādhi where the mind is divorced from 5 sense faculties.
Commentary by Dr. Chu
SA557-SA559 should be treated as a cluster of suttas on the same theme, i.e., that of animitta samadhi.
This is not a controversial observation. It has been pointed out by a few Agama specialists, including Yinshun (see, for example, Kong zhi tanjiu (1985), p. 36). Also, in the Chinese Agamas, Ananda is most often the main interlocutor or expounder of animitta samadhi. And here, in all three suttas, Ananda was the protagonist.
Animitta samadhi is a tricky matter, both in the context of the Pali canon and that of the Chinese Agamas. In both contexts, animitta could refer to a variety of very different attainments: it could be synonymous with the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; it could be an unskillful, coma-like state of general non-differentiation (an instance of Wrong Concentration which the Sarvastivadins and the Sautrantikas classify as one possible manifestations of the fourth jhana, and the Theravadins classify as unskillful but nonetheless above the realm of the fourth jhana); it could be a characteristic of the Unbinding itself; it could be the cessation [of feeling and perception] attainment; or it could be this unspecified but highly revered attainment where all disturbances cease (c.f. Culasunnata Sutta).
In the Chinese context, animitta is variously translated as wuxiang 無想 and wuxiang 無相. Given the context of SA557-SA559, there’s little doubt that wuxiang 無想 and wuxiang 無相 are indeed treated as the same thing.
With this in mind, there’s nothing particularly controversial about the doctrinal stance of SA559.
Typically, jhanas in the major Nikayas/Agamas are primarily described in somatic terms (related to the body). There’s good continuity on this issue between the “early of the early suttas” (e.g. portions of KN) and the major Nikayas/Agamas. The former talks often of “staying in touch with bodily bliss” as among the primary duties of a monk, that it is perfectly sensible that the same theme is picked up and elaborated in the other Nikayas/Agamas. It also leaves little doubt that, jhanas, as envisioned in the early suttas, entail tactile/corporeal sensory experience.
In contrast, the formless are differentiated from the jhanas by the experience of sensory shutoff: bodily perception is transcended, the mind is no longer sensitive of the dimension [of the five senses], there’s not the perception of multiplicity, feelings and somatic metaphors are absent in their standard descriptions…
But there’s an exception to this general rule. This is where the animitta is shown to be unique. And in fact, SA557-SA559 are precisely about Ananda being asked about the special status of animitta. When first jhana all the way to the dimension of not-a-thing-ness are practiced in the animitta way, the mind can be “noncognizant [of the sensory dimension]” but still perceiving perceptual data; and when neither-perception-or-non-perception is practiced in the animitta way, the mind can be “noncognizant [of the sensory dimension]” AND also not perceiving perceptual data.
In other words, the main point of the SA suttas in question is to point out the unique nature of the animitta attainment, which subverts the norm. The norm is of course that, in jhanas, one is cognizant of the sensory dimension and perceiving perceptual data.
Although AN9.37 is identified as a parallel sutta to SA557 & SA559 taken as a cluster, AN9.37 is, unlike its supposed SA parallel, actually spelling out the norm: first, it makes no mention of the animitta at all (this is significant, and it brings to question whether we are dealing with sister suttas after all). It is simply talking about the formless attainments. Second, it proceeds to describe the formless attainments as having the characteristic of “not being sensitive to the sensory dimension.” And of course you cannot apply that same description to jhanas, which is precisely why AN9.37 didn’t include the jhanas in its list of “not-sensitive to that dimension.”
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Coëmgenu »

frank k wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:11 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:19 am I read earlier today a work that referenced Samyukta agama 559, and would like to read it. Does anyone know of an english translation to it?
not a translation, but illuminating comments on it from Dr. Chu.

excerpt:

[...]

In the Chinese context, animitta is variously translated as wuxiang 無想 and wuxiang 無相. Given the context of SA557-SA559, there’s little doubt that wuxiang 無想 and wuxiang 無相 are indeed treated as the same thing. [...]
This would make a lot more sense then Buddhists suddenly getting into asaṁjña samādhi. It is a special animitta way of approaching the jhānas. Seems to check out.

The mind and dharmas being absent is still bizarre, and that actually gives credence to "asaṁjña" instead of "animitta." But if the mind and dharmas are truly absent, why say "has perceptions, yet is unaware?" The entire text should systematically say "has no perceptions and is unaware," one could argue.

It is possible that "There is the mind and dharmas (yet they are unaware of them)" uniquely only applies to the last concentration, which would also suggest that it is actually asaṁjña, not animitta, but that doesn't explain why asaṁjña meditation is not rejected. The only way I can make it work is that this is a special wholesome asaṁjña that refers to "Nirvāṇa as Saññāvedayitanirodha," but that is highly contrived and causes more problems than it solves outside of the context of this sūtra. It seems odd that Ven Kāmabhū wouldn't know about saññāvedayitanirodha.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:54 pmThe only way I can make it work is that this is a special wholesome asaṁjña that refers to "Nirvāṇa as Saññāvedayitanirodha," but that is highly contrived and causes more problems than it solves outside of the context of this sūtra. It seems odd that Ven Kāmabhū wouldn't know about saññāvedayitanirodha.
So the trick is to disregard that there are "the mind and dharmas; and that there are monks who have these many dharmas, yet are unaware (of them)" (有意有法,而有比丘有是等法,能不覺知。) for the first 7 contemplations. If you do this, then the final asaṁjña/animitta contemplation becomes "Nirvāṇa without residue" as posited by several Śrāvaka sects, but in the "here-and-now" and accessed via the fourth arūpyasamāpatti. I am hesitant to say that this is the definite solution and keep it a theory, because to call that which is not Nirvāṇa "Nirvāṇa" causes all sorts of trouble. It's like the Buddhist version of idolatry. This solution allows for "hard jhānas" and implies that Nirvāṇa is either identical to or can be accessed via said fourth arūpyasamāpatti. That Nirvāṇa is identical to the fourth arūpyasamāpatti is the far more radical and more audacious consequence IMO and is less likely by far to be true than the other.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
waryoffolly
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by waryoffolly »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:14 am As usual, this is very rough.
Thanks! Rough or not, it has the entire thing translated like I was hoping to see.
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by asahi »

I believe below translation should be better and much comprehensible . 🙏



「奇哉!尊者阿難!有眼有色、有耳有聲、有鼻有香、有舌有味、有身有觸、有意有法,而有比丘有是等法,能不覺知。
" strange indeed, Ven. Ānanda, there are eyes and sights, ears and sounds, nose and scents, tongue and tastes, body and tactiles , and the mind and dharmas; and yet there are monks being oblivious of those dharmas .

云何?尊者阿難!彼比丘為有想不覺知,為無想故不覺知?」
How is it then ? Ven. Ānanda, is that the monk though with perception but are unaware ; or is it because unaware due to without perception ?"

尊者阿難語迦摩比丘言: 「有想者亦不覺知,況復無想。」
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "if person with perception even so being unaware. What more then , for those that are without perception."



Ps . The rest of the passage are suppose to read inline with above principle .


:anjali:
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:29 am I believe below translation should be better and much comprehensible . 🙏



「奇哉!尊者阿難!有眼有色、有耳有聲、有鼻有香、有舌有味、有身有觸、有意有法,而有比丘有是等法,能不覺知。
" strange indeed, Ven. Ānanda, there are eyes and sights, ears and sounds, nose and scents, tongue and tastes, body and tactiles , and the mind and dharmas; and yet there are monks being oblivious of those dharmas .

云何?尊者阿難!彼比丘為有想不覺知,為無想故不覺知?」
How is it then ? Ven. Ānanda, is that the monk though with perception but are unaware ; or is it because unaware due to without perception ?"

尊者阿難語迦摩比丘言: 「有想者亦不覺知,況復無想。」
Ven. Ānanda spoke to Ven. Kāmabhū, saying: "if person with perception even so being unaware. What more then , for those that are without perception."



Ps . The rest of the passage are suppose to read inline with above principle .


:anjali:
Interesting. It would make sense that when someone is experiencing the intense rapture and bliss of the 1st Jhana that they become oblivious to the other senses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Coëmgenu »

You forget "the mind and dharmas." That's an extreme anomalous detail in a very odd place. You have to ignore it for the first 7 contemplations to have the text speak of "hard jhānas." So it's clearly a tricky sūtra with an unclear meaning, IMO.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:55 pm You forget "the mind and dharmas." That's an extreme anomalous detail in a very odd place. You have to ignore it for the first 7 contemplations to have the text speak of "hard jhānas." So it's clearly a tricky sūtra with an unclear meaning, IMO.
It does say he still has perceptions, or conceptions? The nimitta is a conceptual image. The ambiguity is around what is meant by mental dhammas here, but that doesn’t detract from the overall message of this sutra. Namely, that from the 1st Jhana onwards there is no experience of the 5 senses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The issue is, it actually says there are no six senses from the first jhana onwards. That the mind and dhammas (or at least "one" dharma) are actually there during the jhana has to be inferred, and the material text of the sutra must be ignored for 7 of 8 contemplations. Now, this has precedent, because the material text of the sutra is internally incoherent, but because it is incoherent, I don't see it as having a "overall message." The text seems to be in a bad state of preservation. Perhaps the Chinese translator had a difficult time with this sutra? Maybe he used eccentric vocabulary and a subsequent copyist didn't know what he meant? Who knows?

The scripture can be doctored to fit the mainstream absorbed model, but doesn't really have it if we read the text and just the text. Also, are persons ever described as "animitta" in Pali literature? It seems something normally reserved for concentrations. It is, after all, the person who is described as 無想 initially, and the samadhi itself is only described as such after a while.

To give you an idea of the difficult context, 覺(知) is pratisaṃvedayati (and other related terms) in SA. There is saṃjñā 想 (despite there being no mind!), but no pratisaṃvedayati 覺 of the dharmas 法. It's not a matter of cognition versus conception here, IMO.

Furthermore, we have 12 elements outlined, and then the text specifies that "they" (the monkish meditators) have these dharmas, but no "pratisaṃvedayati" of them. The mind itself was included in the list of 12, which are the six senses and their objects. We know that the mind itself is described as a dharma in Buddhist literature. We need but only look at the opening of the Dharmapada, which has just this identical usage of "dharmas." The dharmas that are not had by the cognizor, incoherently, include his own mind, let alone any objects associated with said mind.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: SA 559 English Translation?

Post by asahi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:09 pm The issue is, it actually says there are no six senses from the first jhana onwards. That the mind and dhammas (or at least "one" dharma) are actually there during the jhana has to be inferred, and the material text of the sutra must be ignored for 7 of 8 contemplations. Now, this has precedent, because the material text of the sutra is internally incoherent, but because it is incoherent, I don't see it as having a "overall message." The text seems to be in a bad state of preservation. Perhaps the Chinese translator had a difficult time with this sutra? Maybe he used eccentric vocabulary and a subsequent copyist didn't know what he meant? Who knows?

The scripture can be doctored to fit the mainstream absorbed model, but doesn't really have it if we read the text and just the text. Also, are persons ever described as "animitta" in Pali literature? It seems something normally reserved for concentrations. It is, after all, the person who is described as 無想 initially, and the samadhi itself is only described as such after a while.

To give you an idea of the difficult context, 覺(知) is pratisaṃvedayati (and other related terms) in SA. There is saṃjñā 想 (despite there being no mind!), but no pratisaṃvedayati 覺 of the dharmas 法. It's not a matter of cognition versus conception here, IMO.

Furthermore, we have 12 elements outlined, and then the text specifies that "they" (the monkish meditators) have these dharmas, but no "pratisaṃvedayati" of them. The mind itself was included in the list of 12, which are the six senses and their objects. We know that the mind itself is described as a dharma in Buddhist literature. We need but only look at the opening of the Dharmapada, which has just this identical usage of "dharmas." The dharmas that are not had by the cognizor, incoherently, include his own mind.
Could you explain in plain what was the issues here ?
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