should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
David ceballos
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should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by David ceballos »

I have a doubt about in which order do we should practice satipatthana?, should we start with the “contemplation of the body” then continue with the “contemplation of the feelings” to move to the “contemplation of citta” and end in the contemplation of dhammas? I mean is that the order? or that doesn’t matter ?..are they practiced gradually? and when we know that we are ready to move to the next satipatthana?

I would be grateful if you share suttas related to the topic, thank you very much in advance … please do not use abidhamma or visuddhimagga … only Ebts

metta :anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi David,

Bhikkhu Analyo has written a practice guide, and provided guided meditations, based on his comparative studies of EBTs. I've found that very useful.

Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation: A Practice Guide, Cambridge: Windhorse, 2018
The book can be purchased, but it is also freely available from his website:
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... lications/).
Guided meditations: https://www.windhorsepublications.com/s ... ion-audio/

The guided meditations he provides here: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... layo/mfcc/ are also relevant. Some are similar to the book mentioned above, but deal a little more with "internal/external" contemplation.

:heart:
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DooDoot
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by DooDoot »

David ceballos wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:25 pm I would be grateful if you share suttas related to the topic, thank you very much in advance … please do not use abidhamma or visuddhimagga … only Ebts
Its gradual. The suttas say the breath & body are calmed, which causes pleasant feelings to arise, then causes the mind (citta) to become gradually more pure, then pure mind is directed to insight of Dhamma Principles. MN 118 describes this or the jhana teachings says this, such as in MN 19:
But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, I entered upon and abided in the second jhāna, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.

“With the fading away as well of rapture, I abided in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, I entered upon and abided in the third jhāna, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’

“With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

MN 19
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 29, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:04 pm Bhikkhu Analyo
compare to Bhikkhu Buddhadasa:
The 16 Steps is a straight-forward and clear practice, not just a list of names or dhammas like in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Digha-nikaya#22**). Therefore, let us not fall into the misunderstanding that Anapanasati is not satipatthana, otherwise we might lose interest in it thinking that it is wrong. Unfortunately, this misunderstanding is common. Let us reiterate that Anapanasati is the heart of all four satipatthana in a form that can be readily practiced.

We have taken time to consider the words "satipatthana" and "Anapanasati" for the sake of ending any misunderstandings that might lead to a narrow-minded lack of consideration for what others are practicing. So please understand correctly that whether we call it satipatthana or Anapanasati there are only four matters of importance: kaya, vedana, citta, and Dhamma. However, in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta there's no explanation of how to practice these four things. It gives only the names of dhammas and expands upon them. For example, the matter of kaya (body) is spread out over corpse meditations, sati-sampajanna in daily activities, the postures, and others more than can be remembered. It merely catalogues groups of dhammas under the four areas of study.

The Anapanasati Sutta, on the other hand, shows how to practice the four foundations in a systematic progression that ends with emancipation from all dukkha. The sixteen steps work through the four foundations, each one developing upon the previous, and supporting the next. Practice all sixteen steps fully and the heart of the satipatthana arises perfectly. In short, the Satipatthana Suttas are only lists of names. The Anapanasati Sutta clearly shows how to practice the four foundations without anything extra or surplus. It does not mention unrelated matters.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Inedible
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by Inedible »

Training will still be gradual even if you rotate through all four foundations of mindfulness in a single session.
SarathW
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by SarathW »

David ceballos wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:25 pm I have a doubt about in which order do we should practice satipatthana?, should we start with the “contemplation of the body” then continue with the “contemplation of the feelings” to move to the “contemplation of citta” and end in the contemplation of dhammas? I mean is that the order? or that doesn’t matter ?..are they practiced gradually? and when we know that we are ready to move to the next satipatthana?

I would be grateful if you share suttas related to the topic, thank you very much in advance … please do not use abidhamma or visuddhimagga … only Ebts

metta :anjali:
Hi
This is one of the best questions raised in this forum for some time!

It is not gradual in the sense of body contemplation first and then feeling etc.

All four Satipathana arise together.

However, the progress is gradual from the elimination of five hindrances to the attaining of seven factors of enlightenment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by thomaslaw »

David ceballos wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:25 pm I have a doubt about in which order do we should practice satipatthana?, should we start with the “contemplation of the body” then continue with the “contemplation of the feelings” to move to the “contemplation of citta” and end in the contemplation of dhammas? I mean is that the order? or that doesn’t matter ?..are they practiced gradually? and when we know that we are ready to move to the next satipatthana?

I would be grateful if you share suttas related to the topic, thank you very much in advance … please do not use abidhamma or visuddhimagga … only Ebts

metta :anjali:
According to SN 47 Satipatthana Samyutta and its SA version, e.g. SN 47.2 and SA 622, satipatthana is not practiced gradually in the order from body first, and then feeling, mind, and end in dhamma. Body and mind (the four aspects of mindfulness) are closely interconnected in practice, the connection between mindfulness and awareness (sati, sampajanna). Cf.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

If the meaning of Sati can be understood practically, the Maha Satipatthana Sutta would make a whole lot more sense.

Imagine a naughty child with attention deficit disorder, who is always running away from his seat in the classroom. The naughty child is like most of us. The classroom, is this world of experience. The seat is sati.

Another child, with good powers of attention comfortably seated in the classroom. But doesn't have a good teacher. This is like a practitioner from another tradition with a well developed mind. And presentations he receives may include deep states of meditative absorption. But he may reach all the wrong conclusions.

Another child, with good powers of attention comfortably seated in the classroom. But has a good teacher. And presentations he receives may include deep states of meditative absorption. And he may reach all the right conclusions.

As I understand.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
SarathW
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by SarathW »

Inedible wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 10:42 pm Training will still be gradual even if you rotate through all four foundations of mindfulness in a single session.
:goodpost:
More to the point all four Satipathana arises and perishes instantly at every thought-moment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
David ceballos
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by David ceballos »

thanks for your answers, were helpful :anjali: , So how do I practice them? Do I do the "contemplation of the body" today, other day I do the " contemplation of the feelings" ... and so? is there any sutta who talks about it? thanks
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by DooDoot »

David ceballos wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:46 pm thanks for your answers, were helpful :anjali: , So how do I practice them? Do I do the "contemplation of the body" today, other day I do the " contemplation of the feelings" ... and so? is there any sutta who talks about it? thanks
practise of contemplation of the body is done until the breath calms sufficiently for pleasant feelings to arise. there is only one practice, namely, watching the breathing
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SarathW
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by SarathW »

David ceballos wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:46 pm thanks for your answers, were helpful :anjali: , So how do I practice them? Do I do the "contemplation of the body" today, other day I do the " contemplation of the feelings" ... and so? is there any sutta who talks about it? thanks
It appears you did not understand my post.
You have to experience all four right now.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:11 am It appears you did not understand my post.
You have to experience all four right now.
It appears you do not understand satipatthana. Your post is wrong and is best ignored.

Also, one of the satipatthana includes arising & passing; therefore your idea "all four Satipathana arises and perishes instantly at every thought-moment" as also wrong.

If sati "perished" then there is a lapse of sati. A lapse of sati (aka forgetfulness) cannot be sati (non-forgetfulness).
SarathW wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:11 am :D
:roll:
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

David ceballos wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:46 pm thanks for your answers, were helpful :anjali: , So how do I practice them? Do I do the "contemplation of the body" today, other day I do the " contemplation of the feelings" ... and so? is there any sutta who talks about it? thanks
I think an advanced practitioner is firmly established in Sati. Not by great willful effort but due to steady development. Like a tree that has sent down deep roots. And like a bird soaring in the sky has freedom in all four cardinal directions, if we were to examine their mind they would be always moving within the four fold establishments of mindfulness.

So I think maybe, you should experiment and find which kammatthanas are more suitable for your constitution and use them to develop your mind.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
SarathW
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Re: should we practice satipatthana gradually ?

Post by SarathW »

Srilankaputra wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:11 am
David ceballos wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:46 pm thanks for your answers, were helpful :anjali: , So how do I practice them? Do I do the "contemplation of the body" today, other day I do the " contemplation of the feelings" ... and so? is there any sutta who talks about it? thanks
I think an advanced practitioner is firmly established in Sati. Not by great willful effort but due to steady development. Like a tree that has sent down deep roots. And like a bird soaring in the sky has freedom in all four cardinal directions, if we were to examine their mind they would be always moving within the four fold establishments of mindfulness.

So I think maybe, you should experiment and find which kammatthanas are more suitable for your constitution and use them to develop your mind.
Agree.
Perhaps the beginner has to practice them individually until they develop sati sampajanna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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